The Only 3300 lb. Buick V6 in the 8s using...

[turbobitt]

I said I was done but I did get something from this past week's trip to PRI that applies to this thread.

Talking with an engine builder and dyno operator about his fuel system plumbing. He was injecting alcohol in an odd area. His findings were the intake and head actually flowed more air and made more power on the alcohol. Don if you remember stating your head would flow less due to the extra alcohol taking up air space. According to this mans work the opposite it true. The cooling of the alcohol actually makes a denser charge in the intake and head ports increasing air flow over what's possible with gas.

Hey Dusty,

I think I made reference to this a few pages back and even posted a link to the turbo calculator showing this very exact thing. Going from say 190F charge temp to 40F charge temp GREATLY reduced the ammount of boost required to make the same given power. Since it wasn't the answer he was looking for and not in line with is ego-stroking tunning claim, it got quickly dissmissed.

Don - BTW - how could you possible think that pulse tunning would be effective in your application if the port flow is as bad as you claim it is, and the fuel is displacing the air flow ? The gains would simply be far less than effective with these things working against you.

Allan G.

 

[Fryguy]

Don - BTW - how could you possible think that pulse tunning would be effective in your application if the port flow is as bad as you claim it is, and the fuel is displacing the air flow ? The gains would simply be far less than effective with these things working against you.

Allan G.

The mistake you're making is assuming that this misguided fool actually has anything to offer other than his own ego stroke.

First he implies that his awesome and super fast car was due to his expert simulator work:

Dang. Running out of things. Hmmm.
Can't possibly be all the sim work I did to come up with this whacky engine configuration. Sims? Bah hum bug! No way.

Then he contradicts that by saying it doesn't even run what he thought it would run (what about the awesome simulator?):

My choice was never to do 8s. Would you have built what I did and expected 8s?

Then he finally says that he puts inaccurate data in the simulator anyhow:

Did I still have to grossly fudge the head flow numbers to obtain a close match to real world performance? Yes.

This thread is just an attempt to pat himself on the back and use big words and brag about an 8 second buick.

Oh well, at least 8 second buicks are cool.

 

[Alky V6]

Hey Dusty,

I think I made reference to this a few pages back and even posted a link to the turbo calculator showing this very exact thing. Going from say 190F charge temp to 40F charge temp GREATLY reduced the ammount of boost required to make the same given power. Since it wasn't the answer he was looking for and not in line with is ego-stroking tunning claim, it got quickly dissmissed.

Don - BTW - how could you possible think that pulse tunning would be effective in your application if the port flow is as bad as you claim it is, and the fuel is displacing the air flow ? The gains would simply be far less than effective with these things working against you.

Allan G.

Alan, you really need to bag the attitude. We're all here to try to learn something, including myself. If you already have the answers, please present them without the grandiose attitude, or simply keep it to yourself and don't interfere with the discussion.
I did not dismiss your input at all. Of course, it fits the image you would like to portray to others better if you make it appear that I 'quickly dismissed' your finding. I was simply waiting for you, or someone else to expand on the line of thought that you presented. No one, including yourself, did.
As I've already stated in this thread, I think a little bit from everything in this combination is contributing. How much one thing is contributing over the other is up in the air.

Pulse tuning of one level or another occurs in all piston engines. 2 stroke or 4 stroke. An engine is either optimized to take advantage of it or not. Even little Junior Dragster engines benefit from pulse tuning with their little ports, valves and cylinders. The size of a port, or valve, or the amount of fuel that has to pass through a port, does not dictate whether pulse tuning is possible or not with an engine.

 

[Alky V6]

The mistake you're making is assuming that this misguided fool actually has anything to offer other than his own ego stroke.

First he implies that his awesome and super fast car was due to his expert simulator work:



Then he contradicts that by saying it doesn't even run what he thought it would run (what about the awesome simulator?):



Then he finally says that he puts inaccurate data in the simulator anyhow:




This thread is just an attempt to pat himself on the back and use big words and brag about an 8 second buick.

Oh well, at least 8 second buicks are cool.

I'm glad to see you have time to waste putting together such useless dribble.

 

[turbobitt]

Alan, you really need to bag the attitude. We're all here to try to learn something, including myself. If you already have the answers, please present them without the grandiose attitude, or simply keep it to yourself and don't interfere with the discussion.
I did not dismiss your input at all. Of course, it fits the image you would like to portray to others better if you make it appear that I 'quickly dismissed' your finding. I was simply waiting for you, or someone else to expand on the line of thought that you presented. No one, including yourself, did.
As I've already stated in this thread, I think a little bit from everything in this combination is contributing. How much one thing is contributing over the other is up in the air.

Pulse tuning of one level or another occurs in all piston engines. 2 stroke or 4 stroke. An engine is either optimized to take advantage of it or not. Even little Junior Dragster engines benefit from pulse tuning with their little ports, valves and cylinders. The size of a port, or valve, or the amount of fuel that has to pass through a port, does not dictate whether pulse tuning is possible or not with an engine.

Reread my post, didn't say it couldn't be done to some degree, just question its effectiveness with the obviouse restrictions you have presented to us. If port flow is limited, so would the effects of this pulse tuning, wouldn't you agree ?

No attitude here, just rehashing the data that was presented weeks ago and never considered by yourself as a possibility. But of course you wouldn't since it's does not support your pulse tunning claim to fame.


Allan G.

 

[Street Lethal]

I would think that the VGT turbo would allow you to get away with a more radical cam. Much the same way the nitrous is allowing me to get away with all the specs of my combination that simply kill spool up, but on the other hand, help out the top end....

These heads in stock form would absolutely kill any top end performance. I haven't grinded down this many speed bumps on any of the heads that I have ever worked on. Jeez, and this was GM's infamous "L69" head back in the early 80's, what garbage they were in stock form. The guides were taken down, just need to smooth it all out and polish, but this should help out the top end substantially. Left is intake, right is exhaust...

 

[Alky V6]

Alan, you really need to bag the attitude. We're all here to try to learn something, including myself. If you already have the answers, please present them without the grandiose attitude, or simply keep it to yourself and don't interfere with the discussion.
I did not dismiss your input at all. Of course, it fits the image you would like to portray to others better if you make it appear that I 'quickly dismissed' your finding. I was simply waiting for you, or someone else to expand on the line of thought that you presented. No one, including yourself, did.
As I've already stated in this thread, I think a little bit from everything in this combination is contributing. How much one thing is contributing over the other is up in the air.

Pulse tuning of one level or another occurs in all piston engines. 2 stroke or 4 stroke. An engine is either optimized to take advantage of it or not. Even little Junior Dragster engines benefit from pulse tuning with their little ports, valves and cylinders. The size of a port, or valve, or the amount of fuel that has to pass through a port, does not dictate whether pulse tuning is possible or not with an engine.

Alan. I quoted my own post. This is post #643. Only a few posts ago. I changed the color of the type and made it bold. Please read it slowly. This will be the third time I had to bring this up.

 

[Street Lethal]

If port flow is limited, so would the effects of this pulse tuning, wouldn't you agree?

But this can be made up for through overlap reversion though, no...?

 

[Alky V6]

Street Lethal. It would be nice if you could widen the bowl areas.

 

[Alky V6]

Reread my post, didn't say it couldn't be done to some degree, just question its effectiveness with the obviouse restrictions you have presented to us. If port flow is limited, so would the effects of this pulse tuning, wouldn't you agree ?

Allan G.

Alan, if you're looking for a definitive answer from me on pulse tuning, you're not going to get one. All I can tell you is that every spec of my engine configuration took the possibility of achieving pulse tuning into consideration. That was an important target for me. You might say that was another goal of my experiment. To see if pulse tuning was possible with a turbocharged engine. I had read material from other well known individuals that had shown that it was possible. I think I even gave you a reference to one individual that actually did extensive engine dyno work on that very subject with a turbocharged Buick V6 with stock heads, and had success with it. I'm not sure why you choose to ignore that particular reference.
It's clear to everyone that you don't believe in the advantages of pulse tuning on a turbocharged engine. I think everyone gets that. Why do you want to keep grinding that into the ground? Are people not allowed to have differing opinions in your world?

How much is pulse tuning helping with my combination? Don't know for sure. I could give you an idea based on my sim work, but that would be a waste of time since most here believe the sim to be garbage. So I'll just keep that little bit of information to myself.
I can tell you one thing, for sure. All the specs I came up with in an attempt to achieve pressure pulse tuning with this engine, sure doesn't seem to be hurting anything.

 

[turbobitt]

Alan, if you're looking for a definitive answer from me on pulse tuning, you're not going to get one. All I can tell you is that every spec of my engine configuration took the possibility of achieving pulse tuning into consideration. That was an important target for me. You might say that was another goal of my experiment. To see if pulse tuning was possible with a turbocharged engine. I had read material from other well known individuals that had shown that it was possible. I think I even gave you a reference to one individual that actually did extensive engine dyno work on that very subject with a turbocharged Buick V6 with stock heads, and had success with it. I'm not sure why you choose to ignore that particular reference.
It's clear to everyone that you don't believe in the advantages of pulse tuning on a turbocharged engine. I think everyone gets that. Why do you want to keep grinding that into the ground? Are people not allowed to have differing opinions in your world?

Don,

Maybe you should read this slowly. You started this forum with an question. Like myself, some have spent the time an given you some legit responses. Was this not what you wanted ?

I do have some respect for your accomplishments but don't care for your presentation.

If you wanted to express your opinion, thats fine by me, but it is also a two way street.

Allan G.

 

[Alky V6]

Don,

Maybe you should read this slowly. You started this forum with an question. Like myself, some have spent the time an given you some legit responses. Was this not what you wanted ?

I do have some respect for your accomplishments but don't care for your presentation.

If you wanted to express your opinion, thats fine by me, but it is also a two way street.

Allan G.

Opinions can be expressed without the 'holier than thou' attitude. I've already expressed that I'm not sure 'what' is contributing 'how much' to the performance I'm getting from this build. I've eluded to many things that may be contributing. Have I ever stated that just one thing was the answer? Of course not. I don't know what the true answer is. That's why I started this thread. To throw ideas and opinions around. Do I think I should have to accept that someone feels they have to call my project stupid, a waste of time, and all the things you've called it? Absolutely not. I'm sure I'm reacting no different than you would if I called your project stupid. Do you feel I'm wrong by not laying down and taking malicious criticism from the peanut gallery???

 

[KL Mallender]

Fryguy, without ever meeting you I can tell you are at "Wrench Swinger" aptitude in mechanics, mechanics is a learned trade of skills, technicians are the science behind the repair in question, "Techs" don't just replace bad parts, quite the opposite, they will never stop looking at the failure in question untill they have found a "Logical" explanation for the mechanical failure and a solution to prevent it's re-occurance.
Parts changers replace "Worn" items with new pieces not even caring about why the replacement is even needed, this is all they know.
"Mechanics" in the general term repair/replace the failed unit in question usually performing a "Cover My Ass" inspection, as long as their work doesn't get affected or causes the next breakdown, they don't care because "Somethings got to break" eventually, is ringing in their ears.
Technicians, are investigators/detectives of the physical world. Show a technician a bent "anything" and their mind is working on how it got that way only backwards from it's intended form.

I'll bet you know plenty about Turbo sizing from others you have followed, I'll bet that you know how much to jet a nitrous system because of the blown intake manifolds you've seen, you are certain you can avoid the pitfalls others experience just because have seen others do it.
You, my local neighbor are a "Wrench Swinger", you've never tested a damm thing in your life with factual documentation to verify your "Knowledge", you hide behind a curtain of mystery of "I hope I don't get any on me" when **** hits the fan, I know your type, and I'll bet your co-workers do also, you probably stab each one of them in the back as soon as they are out of hearing range.

I know some people too, with a whole lot more credentials than I've ever done for myself, and buddy, they would squash you as fast as you could possibly blink in the performance arena. I could probably beat you using 5/8 measuring standards, and my buddies could bury me.

Ok, do we now start a new thread about who's got a bigger dick? or start posting pictures of their buddies girlfriends?
Because untill Donnie is able to drop his rear gear, tighten the converter while getting his chassis safe for the speed and then up his boost to take advantage of the alcohol fuel (40-45 psi) argueing further is moot, but I'm a betting man, Donnie will be in the sevens with a small valved 224 inch bent six operating within established rev range already used.

Kevin.

 

[Fryguy]

HAHAHHAHAA....this post rules. We really need more types of smileys in here!

Fryguy, without ever meeting you I can tell you are at "Wrench Swinger" aptitude in mechanics, mechanics is a learned trade of skills, technicians are the science behind the repair in question, "Techs" don't just replace bad parts, quite the opposite, they will never stop looking at the failure in question untill they have found a "Logical" explanation for the mechanical failure and a solution to prevent it's re-occurance.
Parts changers replace "Worn" items with new pieces not even caring about why the replacement is even needed, this is all they know.
"Mechanics" in the general term repair/replace the failed unit in question usually performing a "Cover My Ass" inspection, as long as their work doesn't get affected or causes the next breakdown, they don't care because "Somethings got to break" eventually, is ringing in their ears.
Technicians, are investigators/detectives of the physical world. Show a technician a bent "anything" and their mind is working on how it got that way only backwards from it's intended form.

What are you even talking about?? Is this supposed to be criticizing me for being a wrench swinger, or is it supposed to be criticizing me for not being a technician? I don't get it! I work at McDonalds (hence the screen name), I'm not a wrench swinger OR a technician?

I know some people too, with a whole lot more credentials than I've ever done for myself, and buddy, they would squash you as fast as you could possibly blink in the performance arena. I could probably beat you using 5/8 measuring standards, and my buddies could bury me.

Are you even talking about drag racing? If so, how do you beat me using 5/8 measuring standards in a drag race? I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but I am very happy to see that you're local. If it's a drag race you're talking about, and you have something that sits like either of my cars, I'd love to make that happen. I go to most of the NO ET races at Milan. Please let me know!

I'll bet you know plenty about Turbo sizing from others you have followed, I'll bet that you know how much to jet a nitrous system because of the blown intake manifolds you've seen, you are certain you can avoid the pitfalls others experience just because have seen others do it.
You, my local neighbor are a "Wrench Swinger", you've never tested a damm thing in your life with factual documentation to verify your "Knowledge", you hide behind a curtain of mystery of "I hope I don't get any on me" when **** hits the fan,

I've never claimed to be a genius, but what I know about turbo sizing I know from research and from testing, I've run a many different parts. I don't even understand the "curtain of mystery" part of this post??!

I know your type, and I'll bet your co-workers do also, you probably stab each one of them in the back as soon as they are out of hearing range.

LOL! Sorry Dr. Phil, I'm no back stabber. I'm not sure how you read that from my posts but I don't say anything behind anyone's back that I wouldn't say in person or directly. I'm not a trouble starter either, but you are literally probably within a couple miles of me so if we see each other at the track, feel free to say hello. I promise you'll see that I'm not a trouble maker, but I'm not shy either

Ok, do we now start a new thread about who's got a bigger dick? or start posting pictures of their buddies girlfriends?

I don't care about anybodies dick size, girl friends, co-workers (?), or anything else!

Because untill Donnie is able to drop his rear gear, tighten the converter while getting his chassis safe for the speed and then up his boost to take advantage of the alcohol fuel (40-45 psi) argueing further is moot, but I'm a betting man, Donnie will be in the sevens with a small valved 224 inch bent six operating within established rev range already used. Kevin.

Donnie's car is a steaming turd, and I don't think it would run 7s off of a cliff in it's current configuration. That said, let me be clear that I'm no bully and I would never have even criticized the guy if he wasn't on a national message board trying to blow himself.

 

[KL Mallender]

I've spent some time at Milan, the No-Clocks issue is fools play, you aren't among the kids in the hondas are you?

5\8 measuring is you needing 8(of quantity) to perform/extract a number, I'll need no more than .625 quantity of yours to eclipse your quality.
I've got nothing worthy of a drag race in my driveway except a Park Ave, the best it runs is 15.86, but it does it on three cylinders, we can run for fuel mileage, I'll beat you unconcious here, and no it's NOT series II.
My dick wouldn't scare anyone either, but it's good for laugh.
Any full bodied vehicle that cranks out an 8...anything is worthy of my respect, that performance just doesn't grow on trees.

 

[Fryguy]

I've spent some time at Milan, the No-Clocks issue is fools play, you aren't among the kids in the hondas are you?

No, I only drive American cars. The NO ET races are a lot of fun in my opinion. I'm not a big money racer, but I believe the gambling takes something that's fun and makes it even better.

5\8 measuring is you needing 8(of quantity) to perform/extract a number, I'll need no more than .625 quantity of yours to eclipse your quality.

Ummm..OK. Well I'm still uncertain about what kind of contest you're proposing. Like I said, I work at McDonalds, and we all know that's not exactly quality food.

I've got nothing worthy of a drag race in my driveway

Somehow this doesn't surprise me a bit

Any full bodied vehicle that cranks out an 8...anything is worthy of my respect, that performance just doesn't grow on trees.

And I agree with that. As I said before, if the guy wasn't talking to himself for the first 5 posts of this thread trying to impress everyone with his under-performing car, I wouldn't have commented at all. In the end it's still an 8 second grand national, which means it's a bad ass car.

 

[Alky V6]

lol He said, Steaming Turd! I like that. You sure are colorful, flybait. You're not spitting on those burgers, are you? Maybe flinging a few bugars now and then?

I can't help but picture you as that annoying, whiny, short, comical side kick character in Lethal Weapon that gets picked on all the time.

What would this thread be without our friend, flybait.

All you have to do is poke him in the side a little bit and he'll spend a half an hour putting together a masterful piece of multiple quoted garbage.

 

[KL Mallender]

I expected as much, so I am not surprised.

Kevin, aka: Goober

 

[Street Lethal]

I can't help but picture you as that annoying, whiny, short, comical side kick character in Lethal Weapon that gets picked on all the time....

.... Leo Getz.

[video=youtube;yRP8Tl4BsUQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRP8Tl4BsUQ[/video]

 

[Fryguy]

I can't help but picture you as that annoying, whiny, short, comical side kick character in Lethal Weapon that gets picked on all the time.

Your guess is as close as your car's combination

Although, if I remember correctly, that was Joe Pesci. He's one cool mother****er LOL!

I expected as much, so I am not surprised.

Kevin, aka: Goober

Goober- Sorry to hear you have nothing to race but you like to talk about it on the Internet. I hope things get better for you.

Do you ever go to Lapeer dragway or any of the car shows at Kalloway's?