Alky injection.

meanchicken

gallo vicioso
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
I'll be placing my order for alky injection this week.

Still slightly undecided, but leaning towards an SMC kit over the Alkycontrol.

I recognize the Alkycontrol kit is a better overall kit, but for what I'm doing with this car (12 second....11 if I get lucky), the price and ease of install...I'm liking the SMC.

Wanted to get some feedback from the Southwestern crowd before I call and order.

Any thoughts?
 
i personally like the razors kit better it just looks more stealthy IMHO the smc kit looks like it just serves it purpose nothing fancy about, but i personally dont like alcohol injection i like the c16 better, i dont understand how some guys purchase a alcohol injection kit then want to run c16..... just a waist of money to me.
 
meanchicken dont waste ur time razor only...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
 
With them both being progressive, external pumps and 'overflow' holding tanks, the difference ? 130 bucks
 
The Razor kit is so over engineered it will last longer with less issues than SMC...IMO. I had the SMC, and now the Razor...The install took me about 1.5 hours for the Razor kit. The instructions are real easy to follow. He uses a GM 3 bar map...top notch connectors and includes the heat shrink and soider :) SMC is a great kit, but if I were going to keep the car for any length of time...Razor, the kit has been problem free for me !! But this is of course just my personal opinon.. :biggrin:
 
Sorry, Tim, but you are probably not going to like this, but I think that if I couldn't go with Julio Don's Alkycontrol, I wouldn't go at all. I am nothing but amazed at how nice of a job Mike did on mine and how nice and stealth it came out. As far as appearance, there is just not a comparsion to be made.
I think that most people regret doing the SMC after they see a Alkycontrol kit installed stealthily, but I guess that as long as you are aware of it's cosmetic shortcomings, then so be it. God Bless Julio Don, the Alkycontrol kit that he designed & built for us, & Mr Mike Barnard (Spoolfool2) for taking the time to do mine as nice and neat of a installation job as he did. Props to all. Come to think about it, God Bless & props to any & all that have ever helped on my car in any way whatsoever. You're all the greatest.
 
Thanks, guys.
Seems most on the board like razors kit the best and that is hard to ignore.

Have you checked out the current SMC kit? Seems the older kit had a few issues but he has addressed the major ones.

A couple points on the current SMC. It has the 3 BAR MAF implanted in the control unit.
He also upgraded the pump (still not as good as Razors) which seemed to be one of the major knocks on it previosly and also uses a factory looking overflow tank like Razor for the alky and a mini tank for the overflow.

So the biggest diffs now seem to be razor still uses a nicer pump and the razor kit puts the pump in hiding.

Several giys commented on my post in the Alky section that their new SMC is a nice rig too.

Slap me some more and help me out here!

What's the story on C16?
 
C16= cocaine for your ride (race fuel)
youll never have to worry about blowing head gaskets
but if you really want the alky kit go with razors kit its tits
 
Thanks, guys.
Seems most on the board like razors kit the best and that is hard to ignore.

Have you checked out the current SMC kit? Seems the older kit had a few issues but he has addressed the major ones.

A couple points on the current SMC. It has the 3 BAR MAF implanted in the control unit.
He also upgraded the pump (still not as good as Razors) which seemed to be one of the major knocks on it previosly and also uses a factory looking overflow tank like Razor for the alky and a mini tank for the overflow.

So the biggest diffs now seem to be razor still uses a nicer pump and the razor kit puts the pump in hiding.

Several giys commented on my post in the Alky section that their new SMC is a nice rig too.

Slap me some more and help me out here!

What's the story on C16?

RAZOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO IT!!!!!!!!!DO IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!RAZOR !!!!!!!!!!:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
 
well I like Razors! got his dual kit.

razor makes a great kit! His customer service is ND to NONE! I've been lucky enough to meet him and his family, goto his shop were he builds the kits, goto cars shows in the winter in Florida (60 degree weather rocking sandals!)and drink some ALKY with him too. A wonderful vendor and we are lucky to have him around!

DS
 
Reply

I'll be placing my order for alky injection this week.

Still slightly undecided, but leaning towards an SMC kit over the Alkycontrol.

I recognize the Alkycontrol kit is a better overall kit, but for what I'm doing with this car (12 second....11 if I get lucky), the price and ease of install...I'm liking the SMC.

Wanted to get some feedback from the Southwestern crowd before I call and order.

Any thoughts?
Both kits serve their purpose. The razor kit is more for the serious racer, Both have good support. SMC strong points are price ease of installation.user friendly & certainly ample for a 11 or 12 second car. But the important thing is with todays fuel to run an alky kit no matter who's it is.
 
I'll be placing my order for alky injection this week.

Still slightly undecided, but leaning towards an SMC kit over the Alkycontrol.

I recognize the Alkycontrol kit is a better overall kit, but for what I'm doing with this car (12 second....11 if I get lucky), the price and ease of install...I'm liking the SMC.

Wanted to get some feedback from the Southwestern crowd before I call and order.

Any thoughts?


Both kits are good. I currently have the SMC Kit. I like it but I have noticed that when the pump gets hot, it will not function, and if your not paying attention to the spray light, you could blow up the engine, due to the fact that all of our engines that run ALKY are tuned for it.

If you do go with the SMC kit, just make sure the pump is in an area where there is not alot of heat, and you should be fine.

Personally if I did it again, I would go with Razors. But then again I am also going for a higher goal for power and speed.
 
Thanks guys.

Thanks Lou for a good non-biased expert opinion. I appreciate that.I'm thinking pretty much in line with you.

Thanks Ralph for a completely biased and emotional response. I appreciate that. Aren't you the guy who was at Fudds with me one Tuesday trying to sell your black car and when someone asked "What's that for?" While pointing at your alky line on the up pipe, you pointed to me and wanted me to tell the guy?
;-)
Are you suuuuuure you have an Alkycontrol set-up?
I'm just having fun with you, my friend.

Hey Graza.
You are a key data point.
Is your pump mounted at the AC condenser where SMC recommends, or elsewhere? Are you using his original pump or the newer one?
 
Hey Graza.
You are a key data point.
Is your pump mounted at the AC condenser where SMC recommends, or elsewhere? Are you using his original pump or the newer one?

Yes, that is where I have my pump set up. I am going to try to re locate the whole unit somewhere else and see what happens.

I will say, that when the pump died before, SMC fixed the problem no questions asked. The system works really well, I just dont think the pump holds up too well in extreme temps. And I am almost 100% positive that the problems I am having are caused by heat. For example, on Friday last week (when it was over 100 degrees outside) the pump worked fine when I first ran the car, everything worked. After some driving in the heat the pump quit. I lifted the hood, and felt the pump, and it was extremely hot. Once I shut the car off and let things cool off quite a bit, the pump worked fine. OH, P.S I WAS RUNNING THE A/C IN THE CAR THAT DAY. Maybe that had something to do with the excessive heat to the pump.
 
Reply

Thanks guys.

Thanks Lou for a good non-biased expert opinion. I appreciate that.I'm thinking pretty much in line with you.

Thanks Ralph for a completely biased and emotional response. I appreciate that. Aren't you the guy who was at Fudds with me one Tuesday trying to sell your black car and when someone asked "What's that for?" While pointing at your alky line on the up pipe, you pointed to me and wanted me to tell the guy?
;-)
Are you suuuuuure you have an Alkycontrol set-up?
I'm just having fun with you, my friend.

Hey Graza.
You are a key data point.
Is your pump mounted at the AC condenser where SMC recommends, or elsewhere? Are you using his original pump or the newer one?
If you can afford the razor kit & really need all that it has to offer go for it. The SMC kit will do you just fine,I have sold many with little problems.You have a budget & only so many pockets,If you have a problem Steve will stand behind it. Take the time to call him & see how you feel after that & then decide. I'll be around if you need any immoral support.
 
There's a lot of hype surrounding razor's kit but I dont think it's any better than any of the major kits out there. The only benefit to his kit is that he provides instructions for a somewhat stealth install specifically for a turbo Buick. Actually if you want to just jump on the bandwagon or not engage much thought into the alky process, keep it simple, its probably the kit for you.

I think I'm probably more familiar with how his kit works, and how alky injection works in general than most. I have had his kit apart I have bench tested it.. I know how it works. it does a job but I would hardly call it over engineered or even say that it does its job very well. In fact it is well well well behind what the other alky systems are capable of in terms of technology. Razor just has a strangle hold on this forum and though I harbor no ill will toward him or his products, I think that he is simply resting on his laurels. I would be the first one to commend him if he stepped things up a few notches.

Any thread that comes up about alky kits is the same, little technological info and a lot of bandwagon.

When you absolutely depend on your alcohol kit to work you start to notice the shortcomings, and I have personally had a kit from him that worked intermittently. If I wasn't keenly observant as to the warning signs I might have driven over my crank. He was very gracious and provided me with a new kit but it was quite obvious that his stuff was being left behind and that there were issues that have not been discussed.

Perhaps the absolute most major issue is the evaporation or siphoning of primed alky lines on a highway driven vehicle. Here in California this is a major problem since we tend to cruise on a freeways for extended periods of time. Perhaps solenoids could alleviate this problem, maybe insulating the lines may help. As for now after some time on a free way I have to prime my alcohol system. I have had several pumps and have disassembled them and they are not internally leaking. If it were a pump issue the system would lose its prime over night which it does not do.

Externally is another story. Every pump has eventually leaked and my methanol is from sealed 5 gallon drums from well known fuel suppliers (so I don't think contamination is a major issue) . I have come up with work arounds to seal my pumps at least temporarily (though my fixes have held so far)

As far as tuning goes, I would hardly call the razor kit the racers choice considering the alternatives, you have only one input with the razor kit, boost. This can make transitional tuning very difficult if you don't have an efi system that furnishes you with good work arounds.
There are other kits out there that use more than one input and are scalable. For example, from a roll, full throttle kick down, you will come up on boost very fast and a transitional lean condition is likely to occur since the pump will only react after it has seen boost and has overcome internal inertia, started pumping, and has moved a column of fluid out of your alcohol nozzles, and that alcohol arrives at your cylinders.
By then, its too late, you probably already hit 25 psi at your map sensor, and THEN the alcohol pump reacts. Not good. If for example you had an rpm input you could conceivably anticipate these types of situations and have alcohol flowing before boost hits your map sensor. That's just one example.
I actually attempted a work around with a WOT microswitch that was more or less a brute force fix that ended up making me to rich on a standard launch.

If you do a search on the alky forum you'll find a rather long thread where these things were discussed (and many more issues) when one of the other alky manufacturers was bashed for no reason.

I don't run alky because it makes a little difference for me. It quite simply is responsible for all of the power I make period. I run twin M15 nozzles 30 psi of boost, a gen II translator with wideband correction, and nitrous spooling the turbo. I absolutely depend on it flowing. If it weren't for the GEN II providing me with much better fuel control than stock type chip setups, I would still be pulling my hair out over transitional knock due to the inadequacies of an inconsistent aux fuel system (the alky kit). Fortunately the GEN II compensates with wide band correction which is really critical when pump response time can be behind depending on the situation.

I think a lot of people don't run into problems because:

Number one they don't run a whole lot of boost so knock suppression with alky is not absolutely immediately critical.

They don't recognize knock, especially transitional because believe it or not, scanmaster won't show you a lot of the knock you are getting. Your knock sensor is just a microphone tuned for a specific range, it's not perfect. I can't tell you how many cars I have ridden in that were knocking under boost and the owner was none the wiser. Surprisingly a lot of people don't know what knock even sounds like.

three, I think people run really conservative timing with alky (whether thats on purpose or just because they purchased an "alky" chip with subsequently low timing is another issue)

four, a lot of folks just don't know any better. This is a hobby to have fun and some of us get really into the nitty gritty details that probably bore the hell out of a lot of people that just want to drive their car.

In the four years I've owned my car I've run into a few people with blown HG's that were running alky and not even very high boost. I know there are some locals. Here I am, 4 years of high boost, and still the stock headgaskets, still have the stock bottom end, with ~170k and still good oil pressure. Maybe my luck is running out, but for now she still runs like a bat out of hell so I may be doing something right, anyway, thats just some background so you know where I am coming from with my opinions.

All this said, I still run his kit. Why? I have come up with work arounds for most of the short comings. The ones I haven't solved, I have "fixed" by adjusting my driving habits. Ultimately the only major issue I have left is the de-priming problem. I have "fixed" this by recognizing the conditions that have likely de-primed my system. This is still a major major problem. Beyond that, leaky pumps (not exactly razors fault since shurflo makes these pumps) and flickering low alky light when not low are my only problems.
Like I said before, I've worked around the rest with engine management, but I believe there are better alky kit options that offer much better tunability.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, maybe 4 cents since this was kind of long.
 
Hey Pablo.
Thanks for that post. I appreciate the time spent.:biggrin:
You mention other "better" systems than Razors. Care to drop any names?
I assume they are pricier and probably way outside the realm of what I need for my goals, but would still like to know so I can learn more by reading up on them.
Reading some of Razors tech articles on his website, he seems to feel he has the transitional knock and the pressurizing/priming issues roped in. Sounds like you at least somewhat dissagree. What was his response?
I'll see if I can find that post you mention, but so far my experience with trying to seach "alcohol injection" I get a ton of useless posts....

Any thoughts on SMC's product?

Keep in mind, I'm only looking for 12's....11's if I get lucky...and won't be running more than 20-22lbs boost.

Yes, that is where I have my pump set up. I am going to try to re locate the whole unit somewhere else and see what happens.

I will say, that when the pump died before, SMC fixed the problem no questions asked. The system works really well, I just dont think the pump holds up too well in extreme temps. And I am almost 100% positive that the problems I am having are caused by heat. For example, on Friday last week (when it was over 100 degrees outside) the pump worked fine when I first ran the car, everything worked. After some driving in the heat the pump quit. I lifted the hood, and felt the pump, and it was extremely hot. Once I shut the car off and let things cool off quite a bit, the pump worked fine. OH, P.S I WAS RUNNING THE A/C IN THE CAR THAT DAY. Maybe that had something to do with the excessive heat to the pump.

Hey Graza,
The pump itself might have had a thermo switch that kills it when it gets too hot.

If you can afford the razor kit & really need all that it has to offer go for it. The SMC kit will do you just fine,I have sold many with little problems.You have a budget & only so many pockets,If you have a problem Steve will stand behind it. Take the time to call him & see how you feel after that & then decide. I'll be around if you need any immoral support.

Thanks, Lou.
 
Top