Grumpy is correct. "woulda coulda shoulda..." 9's is not easy or cheap, If it was, every turbo buick would run that fast. I know I would. I do not see any post's of proof about how good other alky kits are besides razor's or smc. Design it, use it, post proof and I'm sure who ever does will sell alot of kits. Also customer service has to be good.
Alky injection.
- Thread starter meanchicken
- Start date
Guys, this thing: " is a quotation mark, that means anything in between them is a quote. I did not say 9s were easy or cheap. Actually, nines can be very easy but definitely not cheap. I was not the one that said it. If you will re-read my post, you'll see that I was quoting something razor said.
I made a mistake in my example of how many times an injector fires (huge brain fart) actually at 6000 rpm if I am not mistaken, your injectors collectively fire 9000 times per minute in SFI (6000 rpm / 4 strokes = 1500 per cyl times 6 cylinders = 9000)
at 4000 rpm its 6000 times per minute
correct me if I am wrong but I'm pretty sure that's correct.
I made a mistake in my example of how many times an injector fires (huge brain fart) actually at 6000 rpm if I am not mistaken, your injectors collectively fire 9000 times per minute in SFI (6000 rpm / 4 strokes = 1500 per cyl times 6 cylinders = 9000)
at 4000 rpm its 6000 times per minute
correct me if I am wrong but I'm pretty sure that's correct.
These threads are tough. I'm being compared with other kits on the market place without any specifics. I guess this is the price I pay being a vendor.
What makes an alky kit? Simple.. you have a list of parts.
Pump, lines, nozzle, electrical, and a controller. Each one of these if has its own strength in making the system reliable. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
So the issue keeps coming up is comparing what I do with the rest of the world. Saying there are other options, or better technology, or better??? The grass is greener statements.
So lets look at the Turbo Buick platform.
Now lets look at the tank. What options exist. Look at capacity, chemical compatability, cost, ease of use/install, etc. Early kits from SMC used a generic 2 quart bottle with a built in pump. Other aftermarket kits supply a 2 quart generic bottle to be fastened hap hazardly under the hood somewhere. My solution was the readily available GM coolant tank which holds a gallon. Add a low level sending unit, a vented cap, and we use a compression fitting that adapts the nipple to a -6 flare end. So the connections to the tank are flare. Hose from tank to pump is a teflon lined nomex braided hose that will resist any chemical. The decision to use this tank instead of a stainless steel or fuel cell type tank was due to cost. The balance of cost vs performance.. The GM tank is a winner. To which my other Buick kit competitor also uses this same tank for storage. Both of us feel this is the right direction. We just have a different approach on how the hose attaches, the low level, and the cap with vent issue. There are no other companies offering any other options.
The hoses used in the system on the pressure side are stainless steel teflon lined braided hoses. There is no better hose for the application. As far as chemical compatability, pressure, etc. Other kits supply plastic hoses, push in style fittings, etc.
Nozzle.. a lot of the companies use the same Hago nozzle. Ours also has an inline mesh filter to eliminate debris clogging.
Pump. Here is where there is a lot of hype. There is a lot of research. And things like the cam design, valving, seals, hardware, etc.. are crucial for long term operation. We build and modify all the pump. They are all tested in excess of 250 PSI of pressure, cases sealed, custom valving employed, extra gaskets, check valves, hardware replaced with stainless steel, etc etc etc. It really gets me when they say my pump is just like everybody elses. No its not.
Electrical. All wiring is heavyduty, feature weather pack connectors, and is more than rated for the application.
So far all the above are very basic, straight forward, and effective. There is no improvement as there are no failures. The only issue, the low level blinking more than some like. Why becuase alcohol is very thin in nature .79 specific gravity and floats dont like to float in it. Does this affect the operation of the hard parts, no. A better solution would be to employ a deeper tank just to solve this one issue, but the layout under the hood on the car does not allow for this. And we get back into the cost issues. A Buick specific custom tank would be cost prohibitive. Those wanting a better solution, trunk mounting a fuel cell will cure this. And the LED will still blink when the tank starts getting lower. Just like the GM gas gauge bounces when it reaches 1/4 tank.
The question on the controller. The controller must handle high current demands and be at least 3 dimensional. It should at least feature an On/Off, a Test button, and be easy to setup and tune. The dimensions are Onset(turnon), a ramp, and a slope adjustment.
Last and not least Buick specific customer service.
My kits hits all the above points and goes beyond. There is no better system made for the Turbo Regals. My goal is to try and satisfy 100% of my clientele. Unfortunately you will always have someone not content. And this will happen to any business. At this point 99.9999 are happy
and .0001 are writing in this thread Some not even customers
What makes an alky kit? Simple.. you have a list of parts.
Pump, lines, nozzle, electrical, and a controller. Each one of these if has its own strength in making the system reliable. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
So the issue keeps coming up is comparing what I do with the rest of the world. Saying there are other options, or better technology, or better??? The grass is greener statements.
So lets look at the Turbo Buick platform.
Now lets look at the tank. What options exist. Look at capacity, chemical compatability, cost, ease of use/install, etc. Early kits from SMC used a generic 2 quart bottle with a built in pump. Other aftermarket kits supply a 2 quart generic bottle to be fastened hap hazardly under the hood somewhere. My solution was the readily available GM coolant tank which holds a gallon. Add a low level sending unit, a vented cap, and we use a compression fitting that adapts the nipple to a -6 flare end. So the connections to the tank are flare. Hose from tank to pump is a teflon lined nomex braided hose that will resist any chemical. The decision to use this tank instead of a stainless steel or fuel cell type tank was due to cost. The balance of cost vs performance.. The GM tank is a winner. To which my other Buick kit competitor also uses this same tank for storage. Both of us feel this is the right direction. We just have a different approach on how the hose attaches, the low level, and the cap with vent issue. There are no other companies offering any other options.
The hoses used in the system on the pressure side are stainless steel teflon lined braided hoses. There is no better hose for the application. As far as chemical compatability, pressure, etc. Other kits supply plastic hoses, push in style fittings, etc.
Nozzle.. a lot of the companies use the same Hago nozzle. Ours also has an inline mesh filter to eliminate debris clogging.
Pump. Here is where there is a lot of hype. There is a lot of research. And things like the cam design, valving, seals, hardware, etc.. are crucial for long term operation. We build and modify all the pump. They are all tested in excess of 250 PSI of pressure, cases sealed, custom valving employed, extra gaskets, check valves, hardware replaced with stainless steel, etc etc etc. It really gets me when they say my pump is just like everybody elses. No its not.
Electrical. All wiring is heavyduty, feature weather pack connectors, and is more than rated for the application.
So far all the above are very basic, straight forward, and effective. There is no improvement as there are no failures. The only issue, the low level blinking more than some like. Why becuase alcohol is very thin in nature .79 specific gravity and floats dont like to float in it. Does this affect the operation of the hard parts, no. A better solution would be to employ a deeper tank just to solve this one issue, but the layout under the hood on the car does not allow for this. And we get back into the cost issues. A Buick specific custom tank would be cost prohibitive. Those wanting a better solution, trunk mounting a fuel cell will cure this. And the LED will still blink when the tank starts getting lower. Just like the GM gas gauge bounces when it reaches 1/4 tank.
The question on the controller. The controller must handle high current demands and be at least 3 dimensional. It should at least feature an On/Off, a Test button, and be easy to setup and tune. The dimensions are Onset(turnon), a ramp, and a slope adjustment.
Last and not least Buick specific customer service.
My kits hits all the above points and goes beyond. There is no better system made for the Turbo Regals. My goal is to try and satisfy 100% of my clientele. Unfortunately you will always have someone not content. And this will happen to any business. At this point 99.9999 are happy
and .0001 are writing in this thread Some not even customersI find it interesting that most people on this board are waiting for someone to come on here and tell them what to buy. I don't get it. You're on this board, so obviously you have access to the internet. So use it. Eveyone forget how to do their own research?
In a SFI mode, each injector fires once every 2 revolutions. In a batch fire mode, each injector fires once every revolution.
SFI: Engine is running 6,000 rpm. Each injector fires 3,000 times per minute.
Batch: Engine is running 6,000 rpm. Each injector fires 6,000 times per minute.
Are there people running SFI mode at 6,000 rpm?
I did catch your point Pablo. In a constant feed situation, another thing to think about. When the fluid being delivered is at a constant feed pressure and is not adjusted for changes in manifold pressure, the volume delivered becomes less as manifold pressure (boost) rises. Delta across the nozzle.
Yes I wrote this and i'll stand by it.
Notice I said "You'll see they change very little" meaning post up a VE table from a FAST, MOTEC, BS3, etc. On a car tuned properly with an alcohol injection system.
Yes you were wrong on the calc. No biggie. And yes if the alky amount stays the same at a fixed amount of boost, the fuel changes as the VE on the motor changes. But understand its only less than 5% variance in injector duty cycle when racing an engine at WOT. So 15% of 5% is nothing. Like the waxing the vehicle antenna statement I made
What calc was I wrong on? the number of times an injector fires vs rpm? That's really minutia when you consider the context of the example. My point is not invalidated.
The injectors still fire more times per minute vs rpm. Regardless of whether or not its SFI or Batch fire, etc. VE has nothing to do with it. VE can increase 5% or it can increase 0%, it doesn't change the fact that there is still more fuel flowing vs time because RPM has increased.
I really don't think you read my posts razor. Please, if you are going to comment on them, extend me the courtesy of at least reading through them and attempt to understand them.
I'm not an unhappy customer. When I purchased my kit, there wasn't much in the way of progressive alcohol. So I got what I paid for though I was upset about the issues encountered with the first kit.
Nowadays there are many different options, and if someone asks about alcohol, I'm not going to pretend that an alky kit like yours is the epitome of alcohol injection. Sure it can work, a diskman can play music, but so can an Ipod.
The only thing that upsets me is that people don't know any better, and they are encouraged not to know any better. Like I said before, if you came up with a kit that I felt was technologically competitive with the advances that others have made, I'll be the first to applaud you. Unfortunately the first step in making technological improvements is identifying areas to improve upon. Thus far you seem to feel there is very little to improve on your kit. I think that is the most unfortunate thing.
You listed many nice hardware points about your kit. I will agree that in general the hardware side is ok with me. Some check valves or insulation, etc should be added. But the crux of what I feel are deficiencies are in the "software" side of the house. Hardware wise it wouldn't take much to tap into some other inputs. Your paragraph on the controller is what I am focused on.
I've been as specific as I can be without outright mentioning other Alky systems. I am not going to do that unless one of them decides to put me on their payroll. You know what is out there and you know what I am talking about when I bring up the technological differences between you and the competitors.
Don, thank you for the clarification. I wasn't sure how many times the injector fired in SFI mode. I don't know if it stays in SFI mode as rpm's get that high.. .that would seem like injector firing time window would get pretty short. Do they go batch at some point? IIRC there is some point where GM setups go asyncronous... Been awhile since I looked at that stuff.
And yes good point about the delta pressure across the nozzle. We don't run boost referenced FPR's for nothin'. In the grand scheme though I don't think that presents much of a problem since the pressure in the kit rises at a much greater rate than does boost. Still something to think about.
and yes razor, these threads are tough.. because I feel that some, maybe including you, feel that I am "dissing" you personally. That is not my intent.
The injectors still fire more times per minute vs rpm. Regardless of whether or not its SFI or Batch fire, etc. VE has nothing to do with it. VE can increase 5% or it can increase 0%, it doesn't change the fact that there is still more fuel flowing vs time because RPM has increased.
I really don't think you read my posts razor. Please, if you are going to comment on them, extend me the courtesy of at least reading through them and attempt to understand them.
I'm not an unhappy customer. When I purchased my kit, there wasn't much in the way of progressive alcohol. So I got what I paid for though I was upset about the issues encountered with the first kit.
Nowadays there are many different options, and if someone asks about alcohol, I'm not going to pretend that an alky kit like yours is the epitome of alcohol injection. Sure it can work, a diskman can play music, but so can an Ipod.
The only thing that upsets me is that people don't know any better, and they are encouraged not to know any better. Like I said before, if you came up with a kit that I felt was technologically competitive with the advances that others have made, I'll be the first to applaud you. Unfortunately the first step in making technological improvements is identifying areas to improve upon. Thus far you seem to feel there is very little to improve on your kit. I think that is the most unfortunate thing.
You listed many nice hardware points about your kit. I will agree that in general the hardware side is ok with me. Some check valves or insulation, etc should be added. But the crux of what I feel are deficiencies are in the "software" side of the house. Hardware wise it wouldn't take much to tap into some other inputs. Your paragraph on the controller is what I am focused on.
I've been as specific as I can be without outright mentioning other Alky systems. I am not going to do that unless one of them decides to put me on their payroll. You know what is out there and you know what I am talking about when I bring up the technological differences between you and the competitors.
Don, thank you for the clarification. I wasn't sure how many times the injector fired in SFI mode. I don't know if it stays in SFI mode as rpm's get that high.. .that would seem like injector firing time window would get pretty short. Do they go batch at some point? IIRC there is some point where GM setups go asyncronous... Been awhile since I looked at that stuff.
And yes good point about the delta pressure across the nozzle. We don't run boost referenced FPR's for nothin'. In the grand scheme though I don't think that presents much of a problem since the pressure in the kit rises at a much greater rate than does boost. Still something to think about.
and yes razor, these threads are tough.. because I feel that some, maybe including you, feel that I am "dissing" you personally. That is not my intent.
meanchicken
gallo vicioso
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2007
Oh....oh....so ...that's how it is...:frown:
I was just messing around....I wouldn't want me near your car either,so we are in total agreement.:biggrin:
meanchicken
gallo vicioso
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2007
Hey Razor and Pablo.
Sincerley appreciate all the techy info. It's good stuff and there's certainly nothing wrong with strong technical debates. We all learn.
I gotta say....My decision was mostly influenced by Ralphs early posts, but you guys are making my brain get bigger with every post.:biggrin:
I'm looking forward to installing this kit and reaping the benefits. Just ordered my TurboTweak Alky chip too.
Thank you!
Tim
Sincerley appreciate all the techy info. It's good stuff and there's certainly nothing wrong with strong technical debates. We all learn.
I gotta say....My decision was mostly influenced by Ralphs early posts,
but you guys are making my brain get bigger with every post.:biggrin: I'm looking forward to installing this kit and reaping the benefits. Just ordered my TurboTweak Alky chip too.
Thank you!
Tim
Good point Don,
I think the lines get blurred when alky starts to become more of a secondary fuel rather than just light knock suppression.
Throw in uncooperative engine management systems, and the lines really get blurred as to what is needed. Lots of ways to work around deficiencies in either an alky kit or your primary fuel system. If at least one of the two is capable of doing so then generally you will be ok. Thats how I've managed to workaround some of what I believe are the 'software' problems I've mentioned with my alcohol system. Couldn't hurt to have the ability to do it with both though.. then again sometimes I like too many options to tinker with :biggrin:
meanchicken
gallo vicioso
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2007
Tim,
You'll be an alcoholic in no time
I suggest looking into getting a wideband o2 to reap the greatest gains from not just alky, but from all of your mods
Thanks, Pablo.
Yes....a WB O2 is on the wishlist. It'll come sometime after I do the exhaust and cold air kit.
....and hopefully before the trans blows up.
rafael vasquez
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2006
Thanks, Pablo.
Yes....a WB O2 is on the wishlist. It'll come sometime after I do the exhaust and cold air kit.
....and hopefully before the trans blows up.
man i got a head ake
you are doing the right thing meanchiks:biggrin:
Pablo. You're probably dealing with a same sort of problem that I've had to deal with on my secondary fueling system. I know exactly what you're talking about in reference to the need to have at least one of the systems being capable of allowing some very flexable, and sometimes imaginative tweaking to make up for shortcomings of the other system. I didn't realize that a simple combustion coolant system could cause those kinds of headaches. Interesting stuff. Thanks for the insight.
ok the reason I run and brag about Julios kit is that the homework is done.. I can't be bothered with all the info you guys are posting I have a lot more to think about!! like what I am goin to eat for breakfast in 10 minutes People should just do a search if they want to really get into it . BUT if they are that much into it they would prob do their own system .
Melissa ran 9s BUT no way in hell was it easy.. the last .10 can be a killer !! She has her own motor now and the old motor is sitting in the Mazda . Got hers running Saturday afternoon and piled over 500 miles on it since then. :biggrin: It's my beater till she gets back from vacation.. ...thinkin here.. why do all you "younger" people have so many vacations???
ok dog is pacing the floor to go eat and for his morning ride.. In closing Julios kit is a well built .. especially for the Buicks .. service ya can't beat .. He answers his damm phone !!
I have a lot more to think about!! like what I am goin to eat for breakfast in 10 minutes People should just do a search if they want to really get into it . BUT if they are that much into it they would prob do their own system . Melissa ran 9s BUT no way in hell was it easy.. the last .10 can be a killer !! She has her own motor now and the old motor is sitting in the Mazda . Got hers running Saturday afternoon and piled over 500 miles on it since then. :biggrin: It's my beater till she gets back from vacation.. ...thinkin here.. why do all you "younger" people have so many vacations???
ok dog is pacing the floor to go eat and for his morning ride.. In closing Julios kit is a well built .. especially for the Buicks .. service ya can't beat .. He answers his damm phone !!
Gary Wells
White turbo Buick trailer park trash
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2002
Leave it to Dan to try and get in the last word. I'm with ya, Dan.
