E85 Goo, How To Say Goo Bye To It!!

[Ttype6]

Very interesting. I've not seen it yet myself but I do believe you guys 100%.

My first guess was that the E85 didn't like all of the oil that has always been present in my intake manifold no matter what I've done to try to eliminate it. I think I will mix some oil and E85 and see what happens. There's nothing in my filter and no evidence on the intake side of my injectors. The goo is only on the nozzles.

Since GNVYUS 1 experiences the problem with his pump that transfers more heat into the fuel and doesn't see it with his cooler running pump,heat must play a role. However, this doesn't prove that the ultimate cause is heat. If heat were the ultimate cause,everyone running in tank pumps would be experiencing this problem. Perhaps heat plays a role only when using E85 that comes out of a storage tank that once held another type of fuel.

There is a new gas station,close to me,that sells E85 stored in tanks that have never held anything but E85 and,as I said earlier,it doesn't smell like rum. Because of the smell of their E85,I wonder if different blends are the problem.
One of the things I will change,in my quest for a solution,is the supplier of my E85.

 

[Ttype6]

Ok guys, you are all looking into this waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy too far. Like TType6 said, just run a half tank of gasoline through it a couple times a year and you wont have the problem.

As I said,the build up occurs very fast. I'm thinking that I would have to run gasoline through the injectors every two weeks to stay ahead of it. I don't want to have to switch that often.

 

[Ttype6]

I really wish the OP would understand that i know why he is forming that sludge crap its because of his gas tank.

I think the information you've provided us about tank cleaning is referring to the storage tanks in the ground at the gas stations.

 

[groumoutis]

I don't run E85 but a friend of mine works at a E85 refinery and he also owns a 86 GN. He told me the only thing added to the fuel is 2% gasoline. The only reason gasoline is added is because the ethanol is moonshine until gas is added. So maybe whatever is causing this "GOO" is an additive that is added after the refinery and may not happen to everyone because of it being added afterwards.


Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app

 

[Rafs-T-Type]

I don't run E85 but a friend of mine works at a E85 refinery and he also owns a 86 GN. He told me the only thing added to the fuel is 2% gasoline. The only reason gasoline is added is because the ethanol is moonshine until gas is added. So maybe whatever is causing this "GOO" is an additive that is added after the refinery and may not happen to everyone because of it being added afterwards.


Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app

By definintion isn't E85 15% gas? Also, can your buddy get some pre-gassed ethanol, for you know...science?

 

[626gn]

By definintion isn't E85 15% gas? Also, can your buddy get some pre-gassed ethanol, for you know...science?

I might be able to hook you up with my supplier of pure Ethanol if you're serious. He imports it from Brazil where they've been using it since the 70's.

 

[Rafs-T-Type]

I might be able to hook you up with my supplier of pure Ethanol if you're serious. He imports it from Brazil where they've been using it since the 70's.

Nah, wouldn't chance it to catch a buzz. I don't want to be blind the rest of my life.

 

[626gn]

Lol. Smells exactly like vodka every time I pour it in my tank. Never took a swig of it yet though.

 

[groumoutis]

The refinery only puts in 2%. After it makes it to whoever buys it from the refinery they add everything else. From what I have heard (not factual) is the the 15% is gas and other additives. I believe the gas is the largest portion of the 15%. My friend didn't even know that E85 was being used in drag racing cars.


Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app

 

[chopped39]

I cant believe no one has made a plastic gas tank for the Gn yet.

 

[nonosv6]

To OP
Now out of curiosity, is the gto flex-fuel capable? That could be a reason it isn't clogging since its fuel system would have been build for it. Another thing , you mentioned that your gn had new s/s braided lines right? Are they ptfe lines or synthetic rubber or regular rubber?


Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app

 

[forcefed86]

Bringing this one back. I've had first hand experience with the "Goo" for many years. Plenty of pictures as well.

Ton of misinformation in this thread!

That Lucas treatment appears to be nothing but petroleum distillates and dye on the MSDS? I have a hard time believing that will take care of all the goo problems. Hell if that does it straight paint thinner should do something similar. But if GNVUS 1 says it fixed the issue I'd believe him! He has been working with this E85 stuff a long time and knows his stuff!

What the GOO is not...

It is NOT Tar/sludge build up from old gas tanks or gas lines. Yes, the E85 can break down old deposits in a dirty old tank and also clog filters/injectors. But that is completely different and unrelated to the goo that builds up on the tips of injectors.

It is also not caused by paper filters or filter media glue being broken down by the ethanol. I have run many OEM paper filters as well as aftermarket filters with my E85. Also a good friend on this forum (Julian Nesbitt) has had an wix GN paper filter sitting in a jar of E85 for many years...It never broke down. I use goldenrod paper element filters on 3 of my race cars and split them every year to inspect them. NEVER had a problem. IMO its the cheapest 5 micron filter you can buy that will support big power on E85.

So I also must say I've had GOO on both my internal tank fuel pump setups as well as my current magnafuel 4301 external pump. So I don't know how much merit the "cool fuel" theory has. I run NEW SS fuel hardlines and fittings. With a NEW poly tank and paper element filter. There is no funky BS going on in my fuel system as far as sludge is concerned.

Here are what a typical "GOO" injectors look like.



Up close and personal GOO!



The "goo" also appears to get into the combustion chamber itself.

This is my turbo buick motor I ran for a season on E85. You can see even the pistons had a coating of this stuff. Briefly soaked pistons in gasoline and it wiped right out. Don't mind that slightly blown HG... got a little excited with the boost knob!





Wiped clean



Same thing with my Boosted Eagle Talon on E85






I've also noticed in carb'd applications it tends to build up on the intake valves. This is an example of an LQ4 LS motor my local bud ran for a season on E85. Carb looked great, new fuel system and poly cell. Popped the heads off and fount this.





This is my golden rod filter element after a season of racing on E85. They always look nice and clean!



This is the filter. Designed for farm equipment you can pick them up at tractor supply for around $25. They are compatible with E85 as well.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_910812_910812

 

[dr_frankenstein]

wow... that looks like resin from a pipe. I wonder if its the same kinda concept as a pipe. I have a feeling there is a additive in the fuel that is sheering out of the mix when atomized. thats why it was so obvious in the carbed motor... a wet flow engine. When the mix is atomized, the additive in vapor form is condensing on the hottest parts of the engine and literally cooking down to what you see. or atleast in my theory. LOL!

A.j.

 

[87chrisss]

Forcefed what testing have you done to rule out all the "misconceptions" you claim? Your post seems more of an attack or shall i say opening a door for argument and in no way shape or form a solution to anyone's "GOO" problem.. Im glad i have never had this issue maybe its the fuel you are buying maybe its an additive in the fuel that you are using.. Question...Are you testing the fuel you are running is it true 85% content?..

If you think a bottle of Lucas is going to fix that then i would love to see it work without compromising the fuel content.
Like DR_Frankenstein said;
"i have a feeling there is a additive in the fuel that is sheering out of the mix when atomized. thats why it was so obvious in the carbed motor... a wet flow engine. When the mix is atomized, the additive in vapor form is condensing on the hottest parts of the engine and literally cooking down to what you see. or atleast in my theory."

Instead of claiming this thread is all misconceptions Prove what your saying about everyone's misconceptions. Any pics of your gas tank & pump sock ? Seems like the goo is apparent when the fuel is heated this Goo separates from the ethanol..

This can be solved fairly easy send it to be tested im open to put a paypal donation into figuring what that crap is for once and for all.

FWIW
I have tested a spare tank i had. it was dried out maybe a few months in a bag.. The tank looked clean! But closer inspection showed the sediment does collect on the bottom its like fine sand and tar like substance.. You can only rub off with your finger.. When it was introduced with ethanol it did break down and it dissolved into the fuel. It could be that goo crap once the fuel is heated or atomized.

I have never had this issue and ive been running E85 a long time as well. Not only on Turbobuicks but on Rx7 /Rotary engines as well. Never had this issue hope you guys figure it out!

 

[dr_frankenstein]

now before we all get out of hand about this. I dont think anybody is really attacking anybody, but some are fusterated by this problem.

Now lets look at some thoughts:

This is happening to some people, but not all.
Some find an additive cures this issue.
Others never experiance this issue.

Now, I am carbed and have never had this issue. I have had the dreaded white powder corrosion in the carb bowls, but no goo. Now its possible, that these additives might be a regional thing. It might not be everywhere due to some retarded emission law or state reg. It might be due to humidity or the way the moon aligns at night. who knows...? But what we do know is the Lucas or Stabil has some effect on correcting the issue. Following my crazy thoughts above ^ Its possible that these fuel treatments are simply maintaining the additive in suspension while the engine runs. It seems fairly straight forward in thought to me atleast. Same reason there are additives in paint to keep it together so it doesnt seperate.

all just concepts..... no facts. But something to ponder about before we all attack eachother.

A.j.

 

[forcefed86]

Forcefed what testing have you done to rule out all the "misconceptions" you claim? Your post seems more of an attack or shall i say opening a door for argument and in no way shape or form a solution to anyone's "GOO" problem.. Im glad i have never had this issue maybe its the fuel you are buying maybe its an additive in the fuel that you are using.. Question...Are you testing the fuel you are running is it true 85% content?..

If you think a bottle of Lucas is going to fix that then i would love to see it work without compromising the fuel content.
Like DR_Frankenstein said;
"i have a feeling there is a additive in the fuel that is sheering out of the mix when atomized. thats why it was so obvious in the carbed motor... a wet flow engine. When the mix is atomized, the additive in vapor form is condensing on the hottest parts of the engine and literally cooking down to what you see. or atleast in my theory."

Instead of claiming this thread is all misconceptions Prove what your saying about everyone's misconceptions. Any pics of your gas tank & pump sock ? Seems like the goo is apparent when the fuel is heated this Goo separates from the ethanol..

This can be solved fairly easy send it to be tested im open to put a paypal donation into figuring what that crap is for once and for all.

If you read a bit, you would know "GOO" is region specific. Because you don't have the problem that does not mean you have done something correctly that we have not.

"Misocnceptions"...? you mean Misinformation? What I stated were facts based on my personal experiences over many years dealing with E85 and "Goo", nothing more. If I had a solution I'd happily inform everyone. You on the other hand admit you have never had this issue with "goo". Yet you openly spout incorrect information about the causes of it. What is your information based on exactly?

If you did a little research before misinforming people, you would see the GOO has been sent out and analyzed. This doesn't mean they have a solution to prevent it from forming. Other than "Run a tank of regular gas through the system". My 160lb injectors don't like to idle/cruise on pump gas much. So if there is an additive that helps I'd like to know!

Chemical Origins of the Deposits

The deposits primarily consist of "Poly Iso Butylene," or PIB, a cleaning additive in the gasoline portion of commercial E85 blends. As far as we know, the ethanol itself doesn't directly cause this type of problem with injector and valve deposits. This PIB additive was never designed for use in high ethanol concentrations.

PIB is designed to soften engine deposits, but below a certain concentration (by total fuel volume) it is actually counter-productive. What happens is that with insufficient PIB by volume, the normal valve deposits don't soften. The PIB actually combines with these normally occurring deposits and makes build up worse.

Running PIB-free E85 is basically impossible in a practical sense. GM engineers ordered special batches of PIB-free E85, but in the real world the E85 still becomes contaminated with PIB because the entire fuel refining and transport infrastructure has traces of it. Still, with this very low PIB concentration E85 deposits can still occur at similar rates.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=37242444&postcount=42

I do test the fuel for ethanol content, yes. We usually see 70-75% year round here. We never see 80-85%. We only have 4 ethanol gas stations within 20 miles or so. I've tried them all over the years.

3 out of the 5 cars I've personally converted to E85 over the years were built with a new fuel system. New poly tanks (foam removed), SS hard lines, Teflon SS braided for the small bendy runs. All had "Goo" issues. Some more than others. I run no sock filter in my most recent build. Cell straight to the magnafuel 4301, straight to paper element filter, then to injectors.





This is how I can safely say the GOO we are speaking of is not old fuel system sludge/broken down old fuel hose etc. Again not that ethanol can't cause that, but GOO is unrelated. Also if you look around the net you'll find 100 other cases of racers with new fuel systems and Goo. Especially the EVO/DSM forums.

 

[87chrisss]

Did not mean to come off ugly, sorry if you or anyone took it that way.. I did not read that article which showed the test analysis sorry about that... A computer can manipulate emotions i guess. Never meant any harm or disrespect. Like in any subject facts are far superior than opinions. I know what ive done and what ive tested, im not going to sit here and debate the situation any longer, my motor is clean. Hope you guys figure it out and prevent that goo from collecting like that.
Chris

 

[Ttype6]

Bringing this one back. I've had first hand experience with the "Goo" for many years. Plenty of pictures as well.

Ton of misinformation in this thread!

That Lucas treatment appears to be nothing but petroleum distillates and dye on the MSDS? I have a hard time believing that will take care of all the goo problems. Hell if that does it straight paint thinner should do something similar. But if GNVUS 1 says it fixed the issue I'd believe him! He has been working with this E85 stuff a long time and knows his stuff!

What the GOO is not...

It is NOT Tar/sludge build up from old gas tanks or gas lines. Yes, the E85 can break down old deposits in a dirty old tank and also clog filters/injectors. But that is completely different and unrelated to the goo that builds up on the tips of injectors.

It is also not caused by paper filters or filter media glue being broken down by the ethanol. I have run many OEM paper filters as well as aftermarket filters with my E85. Also a good friend on this forum (Julian Nesbitt) has had an wix GN paper filter sitting in a jar of E85 for many years...It never broke down. I use goldenrod paper element filters on 3 of my race cars and split them every year to inspect them. NEVER had a problem. IMO its the cheapest 5 micron filter you can buy that will support big power on E85.

These are my same experiences as well. My car will be running soon and I will go back to figuring this thing out.
Bradd Penn has advised all E85 users to stop using there oil,Especially in two stroke applications.
Driven oil products is well aware of this problem and advises people to use only their synthetic oil when using E85.
They sell a fuel additive for carbs and injectors to stop the goo and claim that the additive needs to have polyetherimides in it to work effectively. The product is called carb defender. It would be nice if you could test this and let me know the results. If not,I will be trying it when my engine is back together.

 

[forcefed86]

Just ordered 2 bottles, I'll let you know.

FWIW I had some success with toluene. Toluene is pretty expensive here though so It's not something Id use all the time. pulled my #1 inj on my daily and verified it had "goo" on it, then reinstalled it. Then I ran my tank down to about 5 gallons and added 1 gallon of toluene to the tank. Pulled the injector at the end of the week and it was almost clean. No other additives I've tried have come anywhere near this.

Thanks!

 

[Ttype6]

Just ordered 2 bottles, I'll let you know.

FWIW I had some success with toluene. Toluene is pretty expensive here though so It's not something Id use all the time. pulled my #1 inj on my daily and verified it had "goo" on it, then reinstalled it. Then I ran my tank down to about 5 gallons and added 1 gallon of toluene to the tank. Pulled the injector at the end of the week and it was almost clean. No other additives I've tried have come anywhere near this.

Thanks!

If I run a tank of gasoline,it washes the goo away. Then I switch back.