Ever been beat by a Mustang? Let's hear about it
- Thread starter Notch_n_ator
- Start date
I have yet to see a fast (low 12s/11s) Grand National on the street on Long Island. I'm sure there are a few, but they are not out much. I roamed the streets with my GT for 4 years and raced everything from Vipers - WRX's and never had the pleasure of racing a local GN.
I think this is why I bought one. I rarely see them. On my block alone, there are 3 new Mustang GT's. Everyone likes the GN though whenever I take it out and drive around.
I think this is why I bought one. I rarely see them. On my block alone, there are 3 new Mustang GT's. Everyone likes the GN though whenever I take it out and drive around.
TurboTnZ06
Go on red!
- Joined
- May 7, 2002
I got beat by a 580 rwhp 'stang, he was running a big shot of nawsss. Thumbs up. Oh, I was in the Z06, not the Buick. Now the Buick is ready w/ the TE45a to make it a fairer matchup...
Oh well, one, two or three mustangs beat me in 4 years, that ain't too shabby. Won more races than lost.
I'd worry about juiced up F bodies than Fords though.
Oh well, one, two or three mustangs beat me in 4 years, that ain't too shabby. Won more races than lost.
I'd worry about juiced up F bodies than Fords though.
strikeeagle
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2001
Shall we all go buy Cobras now, or is it OK to own something else?
Look at it this way - it took Ford 17 years, 2 more cylinders, 50 more cubes, 2 more cams, 20 more valves, and a blower, among many other things, just to catch up. Even at that I'm not too worried that I'll encounter a Cobra running low 12s on the street, or high 10s at the track. Do some? Sure. Do most? Get off it.
The only Mustang I "lost" to ran a 9.50, had a chute out the back, and was an eyesore. On the street I've wasted so many it ain't worth the gas anymore...
MM&FF Subscriber
(If you have a fast Cobra, good for you!)
Look at it this way - it took Ford 17 years, 2 more cylinders, 50 more cubes, 2 more cams, 20 more valves, and a blower, among many other things, just to catch up. Even at that I'm not too worried that I'll encounter a Cobra running low 12s on the street, or high 10s at the track. Do some? Sure. Do most? Get off it.
The only Mustang I "lost" to ran a 9.50, had a chute out the back, and was an eyesore. On the street I've wasted so many it ain't worth the gas anymore...
MM&FF Subscriber
(If you have a fast Cobra, good for you!)
Originally posted by strikeeagle
Shall we all go buy Cobras now, or is it OK to own something else?
Look at it this way - it took Ford 17 years, 2 more cylinders, 50 more cubes, 2 more cams, 20 more valves, and a blower, among many other things, just to catch up. Even at that I'm not too worried that I'll encounter a Cobra running low 12s on the street, or high 10s at the track. Do some? Sure. Do most? Get off it.
The only Mustang I "lost" to ran a 9.50, had a chute out the back, and was an eyesore. On the street I've wasted so many it ain't worth the gas anymore...
MM&FF Subscriber
(If you have a fast Cobra, good for you!)
Easy there strikeeagle, let's knot get your panties in a knot.
I was just stating a fact. I do own one of each (see sig).
BTW, Ford didn't catch up with the Cobra, they came out of the box WAY ahead (and yes I know it's 17 years later). My GN went 14.2 when it was stock. The fastest I've seen tested stock was 13.85. The Cobra runs 12.9 stock (some have gone as fast as 12.6 stock), and is a better all around package (except for interior/trunk space).
I mean after all, shouldn't they be able to make a better car 17 years later? No disrespect to the GN at all.
I don't know if by your comment that a low 12 second Cobra would give your trouble on the street, but if they will, you'll be losing alot of races to Cobras in the near future. If you can handle anything short of a 9.50 car, you don't have much to worry about on the street anyway.
And I don't abdicate going out and all buying Cobras (btw they stopped making them), I'd personally go for a leftover ZO6 if I had the cash. My $0.02.
FYI, I've owned GM cars my whole life, my Cobra was my first Ford. I hardly bleed Ford blue, just trying to throw out a few facts.
I see you keep mentioning $40,000, Why is that?
Up until recently (when they pretty much disappeared), you could get them at a considerable discount off their $36,000 sticker (under $30,000 in some cases). I paid $33,000 for mine. My GN was $18,200 when I bought it new in 1986. I wonder what $18,200 in 1986 dollars would equal today?
It's really hard to do any meaningful comparisons against cars 17 years apart. Think about a 1970 (16 years older than the GN)Buick GSX Stage 1 for what $5,000 and put $13,000 into it in mods. See what I mean?
strikeeagle
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2001
I agree. You can't draw meaningful comparisons between a GN and a Cobra. You can say it seems plausible that a fair percentage of GNs cruising the streets in 2004 are well modified, and very quick, likely quicker than the average (non-Cobra) Mustang, and perhaps quicker than some stock or lightly modified Cobras. I think that speaks well for GNs. Is it magic? Hardly.
BTW, why would you opt for a ZO6 over a Cobra? Handling? Comfort? Chick appeal?
1965 Mustang 'Vert/289/Auto/Red/White/Black
1970 Boss 302/Yellow/Black/Shaker/Slats/F+R Spoilers
1989 LX 5.0 Hatch/Stick/Gray/Gray
BTW, why would you opt for a ZO6 over a Cobra? Handling? Comfort? Chick appeal?
1965 Mustang 'Vert/289/Auto/Red/White/Black
1970 Boss 302/Yellow/Black/Shaker/Slats/F+R Spoilers
1989 LX 5.0 Hatch/Stick/Gray/Gray
Originally posted by strikeeagle
I agree. You can't draw meaningful comparisons between a GN and a Cobra. You can say it seems plausible that a fair percentage of GNs cruising the streets in 2004 are well modified, and very quick, likely quicker than the average (non-Cobra) Mustang, and perhaps quicker than some stock or lightly modified Cobras. I think that speaks well for GNs. Is it magic? Hardly.
BTW, why would you opt for a ZO6 over a Cobra? Handling? Comfort? Chick appeal?
1965 Mustang 'Vert/289/Auto/Red/White/Black
1970 Boss 302/Yellow/Black/Shaker/Slats/F+R Spoilers
1989 LX 5.0 Hatch/Stick/Gray/Gray
The ZO6 is a better overall package. I never bought cars for what chicks thought. I like that the ZO6 is light, handles great, and has some nice cu. in. to work with. I think the Cobra is easier to make fast to start with, but a properly-prepared ZO6 ultimately has more potential.
There are plenty of fast GNs roaming (or should I say stalking) the streets, but I think of the Cobra as a modern version of the GN. I explained my reasons in the other Cobra related thread in this section.
Originally posted by strikeeagle
Well Marc,
I'm glad you like your whatever-it-is-after-you-added-a-turbo-to-a-car-that-in-40-years-has-never-come-with-a-V8-and-a-turbo, but it ain't a Mustang.
Well sir, you're only half correct, Mustangs did'nt come with a turbo and V8 but they did come with a Inline 4 (2.3) and a turbo from the factory between 1984 and 1986. Which were as quick or quicker than the GT'S from the same years. They were called SVO's, which stood for Special Vehicle Operation which was changed to SVT some years later and is still used today as we all know. Just my 10 cents...my .02 cents is free.
Oh and to keep the reply in context, I havent lost to a Stang in my T-Type. But I havent tangled with any Cobras yet.
I have to disagree with the potential statement. The Cobra comes with a fully forged engine and the ZO6 has cast pistons. I will, after seeing a few LS1s and 4.6s destroyed making power on stock internals, including my own, always be able to make much more power with forged internals. There have been many Cobras all over the 10s & one turbocharged that saw 8s, i believe, with the stock longblock because it can easily handle 600+ rwhp. Factory internals vs factory internals is not even close in terms of strength.
As far as plenty of fast GNs, I have not seen any on Long Island where I live. I roamed the streets & tracks for 4 years hoping to race one with my Turbo 99 GT and it happened only once in NJ on the way to GN vs Mustangs event. I raced a mustang, camaro, or C5 just about every day of the week, but never a GN on Long Island.
Hence my statement about the Cobra being easy to make fast quickly (BTW, Cobra pistons are the weak point in the engine also). When I say the ZO6 ultimately can be made the better performer I had in mind:
- beefing the engine as needed (including to handle boost)
- overall performance (even though 1/4 mile was forefront in my mind)
I also think you underestimate the strength of an LS6 engine. Either way I won't argue and I'm not going to talk into it anymore since I don't own a ZO6.
Years ago (early-late 1990's) I regularly trekked from NJ to street race on LI. (Deer Park, Hempstead, etc.) Then I heard they were confiscating cars for street racing and I stayed away (mostly racing in northern NJ and Toms River). LI used to be a hot bed of street racing activity, including many GNs. I can't believe you can't find any races in LI. Maybe the new law enforcement measures have killed it.
The Forged pistons can handle some serious abuse as well as the rods. There is very little if anything you can tell me about the 4.6 since I was involved with building and racing many including racing my 10 sec GT.
I spent a large amount of time on DPA considering it was 15 minutes( Now about 25) from my house. There were only LS1s and other mustangs that raced me until I threw the T-76 under the hood. I also probably went to the Long Island drag strip & made well over 100 passes in West hampton and rarely saw a GN. The LS6 is a stout engine, but after seeing dozens of shattered cast pistons, They don't compare to a good quality Forged piston.
Also your modifications are major dollars. There is a very famous Corvette shop near my house, Vette Doctors and the costs to work on those cars are real high.
The friend I had in NJ that works with these cars is one of the owners of Cartek in Garfield, NJ. He has a multitude of 9 second and low 10 second street Corvette and F-body customers. Granted they are usually stroked motors with juice or FI, but they're usually 100% streetable, although expensive.
As to the Cobra motor, yes it's stout, but the pistons have been the first thing to go on high (600+ rwhp and up) applications.
I'm not a mechanic, so I don't know why, but I've heard enormous cylinder pressures are to blame. I didn't say the motor was weak, just that the pistons seem to be the weakest point. The rest of the motor is pretty much bulletproof.
I may have my Whipple on this weekend and should be pushing 575 or so rwhp on my street tune, we'll see how it holds up. I've got my fingers crossed.
I thought that was the problem that 1999-2002 cobras had ,but the piston is the 2003 cobras are different pistons. I don't know if this is a fact ,but my buddy told me that Ford says that the motor will hold 800whp ,but I know that his Cobra has a stock long-block with a blowzilla ,and spray ,and the motor still lives. I know that he drives this car to work most of the year. The only problem he had was the rear end.
strikeeagle
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2001
jayG,
I'm well aware of the SVO. I chose my words very carefully when I said V8 and turbo. Had Ford put a turbo on a V8 back then I think they would have had something (and lots of breakage and customers wrapped around poles). Relegating it to a low production numbers I4 made it more of a curiosisty than anything else.
What I recall about the SVO was why would you want a high strung I4 when you could buy a low strung V8 with just as much if not more power, better PERCEIVED reliability, and more upside? Also, and importantly, the SVO was not pitched as a quarter-miler, but an all around performer. Was it not more expensive as well? I'm sure as an owner/enthusiast I'm not educating you.
Marc87GN,
Your observation that there aren't many fast GNs cruising LI seems plausible to me. I drive my GN all over and almost NEVER see another one in my neck of the woods. The facts are, Buick just didn't make many to begin with, there's been plenty of attrition, and a fair number of GNs I seen in the NYC environs are roaches.
I'm well aware of the SVO. I chose my words very carefully when I said V8 and turbo. Had Ford put a turbo on a V8 back then I think they would have had something (and lots of breakage and customers wrapped around poles). Relegating it to a low production numbers I4 made it more of a curiosisty than anything else.
What I recall about the SVO was why would you want a high strung I4 when you could buy a low strung V8 with just as much if not more power, better PERCEIVED reliability, and more upside? Also, and importantly, the SVO was not pitched as a quarter-miler, but an all around performer. Was it not more expensive as well? I'm sure as an owner/enthusiast I'm not educating you.
Marc87GN,
Your observation that there aren't many fast GNs cruising LI seems plausible to me. I drive my GN all over and almost NEVER see another one in my neck of the woods. The facts are, Buick just didn't make many to begin with, there's been plenty of attrition, and a fair number of GNs I seen in the NYC environs are roaches.
The pistons in the 03/04 are very different from earlier years. Mainly, earlier years had hyperpathetic pistons, while 03/04 have forged units, along with much better rods.
I agree that when something does break, it is usually the pistons (skirt area and the pin area). That remains the weak link (though signficantly stronger than earlier years, as mentioned). 550-ish RWHP seems a good baseline for a long, reliable life. Some are running much higher numbers, but IMHO, they're getting into timebomb territory once they go beyond 600 RWHP.
I agree that when something does break, it is usually the pistons (skirt area and the pin area). That remains the weak link (though signficantly stronger than earlier years, as mentioned). 550-ish RWHP seems a good baseline for a long, reliable life. Some are running much higher numbers, but IMHO, they're getting into timebomb territory once they go beyond 600 RWHP.
strikeeagle,
Your right, the svo was a/b 4k more than the gt...made hard pitch to sell back then. It didnt get alot of support within the Mustang comunity...and still hasnt really found its place in the Mustang circle. Thats why most of todays svo owners arent particulary brand loyal to Ford, or any other brand, as much as we are just driving enthusiast and enjoy doing more with less. It doesnt take alot of technology to make a v8 go fast IMO.
Btw, I didnt mean to question your knowledge a/b Turbo Fords...Its just rare to run across someone who knows anything a/b svo's...especially outside the circle. I'm imprest
Your right, the svo was a/b 4k more than the gt...made hard pitch to sell back then. It didnt get alot of support within the Mustang comunity...and still hasnt really found its place in the Mustang circle. Thats why most of todays svo owners arent particulary brand loyal to Ford, or any other brand, as much as we are just driving enthusiast and enjoy doing more with less. It doesnt take alot of technology to make a v8 go fast IMO.
Btw, I didnt mean to question your knowledge a/b Turbo Fords...Its just rare to run across someone who knows anything a/b svo's...especially outside the circle. I'm imprest
