100% x2 =)
H beam vs. I beam rods
- Thread starter Alky V6
- Start date
100% x2 =)
just plain john
El Camino a Go-Go!
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2007
Trying to keep pace with Donnies posts makes my head hurt. Merry Christmas everyone.
Donnie,
Sorry for not replying sooner.
While we make rods we are sort of a competitor to Oliver but Oliver and K1 sell in different markets. Oliver is a good high end rod that also carries a high end price and K1 makes a very good that is better than most of the other rods that are produced while still being priced at an affordable level. The name Parabolic Beam is a registered trade mark but I could have made these rods and not got into trouble. After spending 24+ years building the Oliver company, I did not want to destroy it by putting myself in direct competition with them with a less expensive version. That may not seem like the best thing to do from a business stand point but I looked at it from an ethical stand point and went in a different direction. All beam designs have pros and cons and in a thread of this type it is hard to cover it all without pictures and diagrams. The things that I would have to post to explain off of this could also get pulled as it would sound like an advertisement. The Buick parts we make target the bulk of the Buick market and just like many other things, do have limits. As an example, not everyone is building 2,000 HP engines so why make all rods massive enough to take that kind of load? I have designed steel rods for nitro Harleys, titanium rods for Pro Stock Bikes (the first 2 years Vance and Hines won the Pro Stock Bike championship they were running titanium rods that I designed), and many other applications. And if you want to talk about severe shock loads, currently Big Foot is running K1 parts in their blown monster trucks but all of these are specialty rods that are built for that specific application. Just for the record, K1 does build a sizeable amount of one off, custom rods and we do this at an affordable price.
The name Murl Bruton sounds familiar but I cannot place it. Can you provide a hint as to where I might know him?
Tom
What is your opinion about using 300m material for rods? Would you use it? Why or why not?
Tom - Let me refresh your memory! I'm sorry to say that I do know who you are , and the kind of engineering that you do! I will layout the facts of my dealings with you! Others may judge from these facts that I present, and you are welcome to provide some sort of explanation to your F---up!!!
This is my expierience with Tom's Engineering!
In January of 2005 I hired Rhyne Competition Engines to supply me with cranks & rods for 4 complete engines. These components were to be targeted for 300 HP per cylinder (1800 HP). Attached are pics and my email from Rhyne Engines showing crank & rod pricing and delviery times. I already had 300 HP JE Pistons & pins in hand. I verified the HP requirement with Mike McKinney and signed off on the order , and sent a deposit to start the ball rolling.
Over the next few weeks you ( Tom ) contact me directly by phone and I took various dimensions off my blocks and provided them to you so that you were comfortable that there was no off set required in my rods and you assured me that your design would well exceed the 300HP target.
Months later, I was notified that the rods were done and I sent final payment. A week later 4 boxes of Oliver Rods were delivered to me.
Upon Opening the first box I just about hurled my lunch!!! These rods were absolutely nothing like what I imagined, and nothing that stood a chance to achieve 300 HP per rod!!!
I immediately called Oliver in total disbelief. I was told that you were no longer available , but these rods were titanium and were 3X times stronger than steel. I told them there was no frickin way they would survive at 300 HP. I was assured by (Tom Baldwin - owner) that they were more than adequate to handle this power level.
Like a complete idiot, I decided to give them a shot (Special order no refund type of thing per Oliver). They did survive at tuneups below 1000 HP but around 1100 HP I crushed one into pieces.
You had an open end book to design any sort of beam design, weight, thickness, etc... Cost was "Not An Issue"! Ability to surve under 300 HP conditions was the only challenge I handed you!!! Attached are pics of 3 Brand New sets of Oliver Titanium Rods and one used set still sitting on my shelf -- totally useless to me!! Also attached are various comparisons to the Crower Titantium and MGD Aluminum Rods that I currently use with no problems. Obviously other rod Mfgs. thought that a lot more beam area was required for 300HP. I suppose maybe you were to busy planning your move to K1 Tech. to actually put any engineering or thought process into my rod choice. Your engineering (or lack of it) cost me well over $30,000.00 to replace and or repair!! Thus my total lack of confidence in your ability to design a rod for a HP Buick v6 engine!!! And my comments in this post!!
So with this information in mind , I hope most of your can understand my furstration and doubts about Tom's ability to understand the rod design requried for a High HP Buick V6 Engine! Comments welcomed!! Mike
Attachments
Several years ago I contracted with an idependant lab to test 300M and 4340 at different hardness levels. 300M is not some magical material that will solve all problems and is actually 4340 with silicon and vanadium added and these additional elements allow the material to be hardened to a higher level. The results of this testing came back with 4340 having better fatigue life until both materials were hardened to mid 50's and higher Rockwell at which point 300M was better. The problem is, when you hardend any material to over 50 Rockwell it becomes much more difficult to machine. Because of this most people who make rods out of 300M do not go this hard so there is actually no real gain. The other down side to 300M is compared to 4340, it is manufacturered in smaller batches so the cost is considerably higher. Dyer is one of the few people who have actually been sucessful in making a rod out of 300M and his quality is excellent. Many others have tried and either stopped making them or gone out of business (Arrow out of Texas went out of business several years ago).
Tom
Not that i know much about it but when talking o a very good engine builder this fall I asked what were the best high streght rod made. Answer was carrillo "the cadillac of rod". Also stated that the rod bolts are what really makes a good rod and can cost around $300 for a good set.
Tom - Let me refresh your memory! I'm sorry to say that I do know who you are , and the kind of engineering that you do! I will layout the facts of my dealings with you! Others may judge from these facts that I present, and you are welcome to provide some sort of explanation to your F---up!!!
This is my expierience with Tom's Engineering!
In January of 2005 I hired Rhyne Competition Engines to supply me with cranks & rods for 4 complete engines. These components were to be targeted for 300 HP per cylinder (1800 HP). Attached are pics and my email from Rhyne Engines showing crank & rod pricing and delviery times. I already had 300 HP JE Pistons & pins in hand. I verified the HP requirement with Mike McKinney and signed off on the order , and sent a deposit to start the ball rolling.
Over the next few weeks you ( Tom ) contact me directly by phone and I took various dimensions off my blocks and provided them to you so that you were comfortable that there was no off set required in my rods and you assured me that your design would well exceed the 300HP target.
Months later, I was notified that the rods were done and I sent final payment. A week later 4 boxes of Oliver Rods were delivered to me.
Upon Opening the first box I just about hurled my lunch!!! These rods were absolutely nothing like what I imagined, and nothing that stood a chance to achieve 300 HP per rod!!!
I immediately called Oliver in total disbelief. I was told that you were no longer available , but these rods were titanium and were 3X times stronger than steel. I told them there was no frickin way they would survive at 300 HP. I was assured by (Tom Baldwin - owner) that they were more than adequate to handle this power level.
Like a complete idiot, I decided to give them a shot (Special order no refund type of thing per Oliver). They did survive at tuneups below 1000 HP but around 1100 HP I crushed one into pieces.
You had an open end book to design any sort of beam design, weight, thickness, etc... Cost was "Not An Issue"! Ability to surve under 300 HP conditions was the only challenge I handed you!!! Attached are pics of 3 Brand New sets of Oliver Titanium Rods and one used set still sitting on my shelf -- totally useless to me!! Also attached are various comparisons to the Crower Titantium and MGD Aluminum Rods that I currently use with no problems. Obviously other rod Mfgs. thought that a lot more beam area was required for 300HP. I suppose maybe you were to busy planning your move to K1 Tech. to actually put any engineering or thought process into my rod choice. Your engineering (or lack of it) cost me well over $30,000.00 to replace and or repair!! Thus my total lack of confidence in your ability to design a rod for a HP Buick v6 engine!!! And my comments in this post!!
So with this information in mind , I hope most of your can understand my furstration and doubts about Tom's ability to understand the rod design requried for a High HP Buick V6 Engine! Comments welcomed!! Mike
Mike,
The reason I do not remember you is because somewhere around February or March of 2005, I was no longer running Oliver and while I did talk to Joe Rhyne about this after I left, I do not remember him telling me your name. I can understand your anger but there are other things that can cause a rod to fail. One thing that I did notice from the photos is the pin tower has been pulled out of the piston. It is very difficult at best to do an analysis of broken parts by looking at pictures, but one question comes to mind. If the rod broke and is no longer connected to the wrist pin, what pulled the pin out of the piston?
Tom
Mike. Even I know that it's useless comparing the dimensions of a titanium rod to an aluminum rod.
Weren't you also running some crazy static compression during the beginnings of your blower adventure? If I remember right, the fueling was also on the lean side for a non-intercooled blower situation.
Not too many rods that will take on alcohol pre-ignition conditions. Aluminum rods would most likely be your best bet, since they're known for absorbing shock loads better, but just with a shorter life span.
Weren't you also running some crazy static compression during the beginnings of your blower adventure? If I remember right, the fueling was also on the lean side for a non-intercooled blower situation.
Not too many rods that will take on alcohol pre-ignition conditions. Aluminum rods would most likely be your best bet, since they're known for absorbing shock loads better, but just with a shorter life span.
I'm no expert
but in looking at the broken parts,
the very first thing I saw was the piston failure, how can a broken rod cause that type of piston failure????
I'm sure it was expensive, and your rightly so in being upset.
But I fail to see where the rod could cause the piston to come apart like that!
I've been around a while, and have blown up my fair share of motors/parts.
and observed others misfortunes,
so please if you can , explain.
but in looking at the broken parts,
the very first thing I saw was the piston failure, how can a broken rod cause that type of piston failure????
I'm sure it was expensive, and your rightly so in being upset.
But I fail to see where the rod could cause the piston to come apart like that!
I've been around a while, and have blown up my fair share of motors/parts.
and observed others misfortunes,
so please if you can , explain.
Detomaso71
Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2010
K1
Hi Tom,
For the record I was really new to buicks and racing and my old set up made enough power to damage a 109 block. I had K1s and when it detonated I did not get out quick enough and nearly everything got damaged Except the K1 rods. They looked new.
When it detonated car had an easy 9 econd pass before I let out and was at 3750lbs.
I would imagine based on my dyno info that at times while I was detonating which I did longer than I care to admit, that well over 1,ooo hp of force was on those rods.
I talked to a lot of builders and experts and thy all told me for less than 1,000 hp save money and get K1 off the shelf.
If your doing a crazy TA block and 88 mm turbo well you need crower or Oliver or custom billet etc.
I think this thread is getting off course as most of us want to know how can I get what I need that will work fo my build without breaking the bank. Also, what are the differences in the geometry of different rods and how might that apply to my build.
Hi Tom,
For the record I was really new to buicks and racing and my old set up made enough power to damage a 109 block. I had K1s and when it detonated I did not get out quick enough and nearly everything got damaged Except the K1 rods. They looked new.
When it detonated car had an easy 9 econd pass before I let out and was at 3750lbs.
I would imagine based on my dyno info that at times while I was detonating which I did longer than I care to admit, that well over 1,ooo hp of force was on those rods.
I talked to a lot of builders and experts and thy all told me for less than 1,000 hp save money and get K1 off the shelf.
If your doing a crazy TA block and 88 mm turbo well you need crower or Oliver or custom billet etc.
I think this thread is getting off course as most of us want to know how can I get what I need that will work fo my build without breaking the bank. Also, what are the differences in the geometry of different rods and how might that apply to my build.
Actually, the thread was started with no money limit in mind.
I would like the content to concentrate on 1100-1200 on up hp levels for a V6, but as long as it doesn't turn into a bashing fest, I'd be happy seeing it go any direction people want to take it.
I was really hoping it would turn into more of an engineering type of discussion on the attributes of the different beam designs, and not end up being a 'my manufacturer is better than yours' kind of deal.
I'll give it a try.
If you study how the skirts of the piston appear to be blown out, it looks like the piston separated from the rod, then the piston dropped to the bottom of the cylinder with a little turn to it. When the piston got low enough in the cylinder, the crank throw and what was left of the rod smacked out the skirt and the pin boss.
Notice the damage line from the blown out skirt on one thrust face of the piston to the blown out section of the skirt on the other side of the piston.
My short experience from the Oliver rods. This rod have 5 1/8 passes. Got quite suprised when I overhauled my engine this winter. Called Oliver and they said that the maximum HP was 225 HP/rod. They recommend me H-beam instead for I-beam rods. Quite enoying when you put that money on Oliver rods, that everybody says is so good.
Merry Christmas
Robert
Merry Christmas
Robert
I blowed up my engine this summer due to wristpin. Of course I destroyed my h-beam rods. I called up Oliver and they gave me a superdeal on I-beam rods. I put it in and I raced with Oliver the last races this summer. When I changed the cam this winter I was checking the bearrings and I noticed the bad rods. After that I switched to h-beam again. I have run h-beam for 15 years, without problems ( I haven´t had so much power all of the 15 years
)Tom, Please note the date on the e-mail from Rhyne engines 1/14/2005. At this point it had been determined that it could be done, and what it would cost to build. As you stated you were in charge of every rod ever produced by Oliver up to the date you left!! You were in charge of this project and I spoke to YOU personally about it. So please dont try to deny your involvement with this situation.
For all who question what happened to the wrist pin boss. When the rod beam gave out , it was in a buckling and twisting fashion which shortened the rod length. There is only maybe an 1/8" of clearance between the crankshaft counterweights and the bottom of the piston to start with , so when the rod buckled the piston was pulled into the path of the counterweight that was swinging at over 7000rpm. Hopefully you can imagine what would happen to the piston at that point!! Mike
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