How far away is a stock motor

[NorCalTurbos]

I'm late, like always I guess but I'm I the only one who noticed that this guys $ is limited??? Wtf? To keep it simple building any 3.8 turbo engine is costly unless you have the resources of Richard Clark. I'm lucky I'm on my second and just went over 10k and I have both hot air and IC engines even on a budget . Btw fellas thanks for the comedy, reading this thread has me lmfao. My 2cents, build it You will be very familiar with these characters soon. Ps. Get back to us after 3-5k so we can all say "I told you so" good luck bro...... Still lmao

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

Using a nice running 3.8 with low miles in a 77 Astre/Sunbird wagon and wondered before I bolt it in if a functional turbo setup could be installed without changing engine internals such as cam and heads. May not do turbo right away but if something is easier now to change to make this possible in the future I might. Wish I could see pictures of the whole system and possibly a functional block diagram.

Major additional component list .. my guess

Modified computer
Turbo unit
Wastegate valve
Intercooler
Exhaust system to accommodate including modified exhaust manifolds
Additional sensors needed to control turbo operation

I may install a Ken Bell #1 intake and a Holley 390cfm 4bbl and would hope it might be usable with turbo and or fuel injection, was thinking I might modify it eventually to use port injection and a dry carb.

just get all the 86-87 GN stuff and bolt in on. just keep the boost REAL REAL REAL LOW until you can build a long block then swap them out and wala a badass setup is born.
Good luck Dude.

 

[V6sleeper]

Sorry to say (no disrespect) your setting your self up for disaster, if your only looking for 300hp their are a lot easier ways to achieve it with other transplants, even if you had a "complete" 86/87 setup its not that simple ask me how I know.. especially in an H body.
And If your gonna start a whole engine build and transplant in an H body be ready to spend 15-20k on a car that's worth $3k at best.

 

[NorCalTurbos]

Btw..... Still lmao!!!!

 

[TexasT]

I can't imagine dumping coin into an antiquated blow through turbo set up. The Turbo Buick did not really "come into its own" until 84 with the sfi fuel setup. Until then it was just a novelty.
The stage 1 and stage 2 stuff was never common even in the mid eighties. These days there are better heads and ta has a wicked block to build with and make power without fear of getting "over extended" .
Pick up some books on turbo in general and do some google searching on these, the interwebz. Again, not telling you it can't be done, just saying you might need a better plan if you want to make big power reliably.

 

[~JM~]

Go back & re-read post #9.

Read it 10 times if that is how long it takes for you to understand the message.

BTW... You should have kept the 215 engine. Much smarter choice.

 

[Jerryl]

I have no dog in this fight and understand both sides of the equation . . . Part of me says "If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you have always got".

Blazing trails like many of you have done, requires trial and error. There is also validity to "lessons learned from others mistakes".

Passionate feedback examples can be seen in the B4Black and HA sections . . . or any other section/board.

 

[keithnh]

Found a casting number on the block yesterday 2554290. Googling the number shows the blocks with a 25514290 or 25524290 numbers. Maybe the complete number is somewhere I couldnt find. Of those 2 numbers the 14290 shows as a turbo block. Pretty sure mine is a std rwd 1984 block. Heat shields still covering cylinder heads but everything is still tight, pulled cleanly. Paul and Anthony (2man shop) doing other things yesterday so I did not unbolt anything ... just clean crud alittle trying to find numbers. I did see the flex plate is not symmetrical as is the flywheel ... more tiny drill holes on one side and big circular thru-holes evenly spaced but unevenly removed. Will try to see if they are evenly weighted at my machine shop soon.
Anthony surprised me offering me some nice chrome 3.8 valve covers, he had told me long ago he had a turbo 3.8 in a Fiero. Hadnt registered then as this project was not hatched yet or even being considered. He had shown it to me before but I had done no reading so hadnt recognized anything except the immaculate condition of the Fiero's engine bay. Yesterday I found the turbo, a wastegate setup that appeared to be mechanical, recognized it was non-intercooled and the turbo blows into a specialized intake and enters below the carb. Trying to find electronics but didnt find any wires that looked associated. He didnt build it but bought as is ... it is a beautiful car low,low miles red wi black interior for sale on Ebay about 10K. Not sure anything on it is GNX might be all aftermarket. It is stored in a trailer right now but I may be able to convince Anthony to get it out and take me for a ride in it to see how it goes, maybe use as a model abit to see if I can build something comparable eventually. For now I will just try to bump my 3.8 na with the parts I have and replace anything whose condition is marginal. Make a nice little worker bee H-body wagon that is dependable. Found Pioneer polished rocker shafts online and was thinking about these and new rockers, oil pump and timing chain. Waiting for the Gebler headers to drop in price . Anybody know Pioneer rocker shafts nomenclature ... are RS-667 and RS-415 different somehow? Listed on Ebay as the same part .. they are advertised as polished 3.8 shafts.

 

[Pronto]

Just looking quickly at this, cheap chins headers=fail, blow through carb= fail, no tuning method = fail, non turbo crank = fail, non turbo pistons = fail. There is no guarantee tube headers will fit in an h body. You haven't mentioned what trans so that will probably add more fabrication. If you really want to do a turbo buick engine do it right. You're way better off going n/a if your on a tight budget. But what do I know...

 

[turbofabricator]

Here is my advice........... ( coming from a guy who has built many many turbo Buick engines new for more than 27 years)................


STOP! Learn to listen. We are not dream killers. Just a group of guys trying to save you from a serious financial failure.

Ask a question, and listen. A stock Buick V6_will not live in a turbocharged environment. PERIOD.
Buy a car/truck that you can use a GM LS V8 and turbo that. It will be thousands of dollars cheaper, and make a lot more power.

 

[keithnh]

Have decided to build the engine NA 1st and possibly continue later with forced induction and upgraded components ... possibly all of them if I choose to go that route. My 1st conversion challenge will be to successful port injection from a carb engine, that will be helpful I believe as I will be learning to implement electronic controls on an engine for a custom application. I am on another forum helping me do that I really like. They will be helping me burn a custom chip possibly for my application. Would like to drill my KB manifold for port injection and plug for the temporary carb setup before installing and was wondering if anyone here had specific info on how to "point" the injectors for best possible result with factory heads. I am not sure what injectors I will choose and the heads might eventually change(Stage 1?) so was wondering if there was a universal position that was most advantageous.

Thinking about claims/results from various people with the little 231 CI V6 .. it apparently is capable of making over 125hp per hole and surviving .. thats over 3hp per CI. Still not sure what mix of parts makes this or varying degrees of it possible. Pretty amazing, if I was building a V8 to make that kind of power I would be strengthening the crank and lightening and strengthening the ra members, top-coating pistons for thermal isolation. Roller cam and shaft rockers. Trying to carefully match induction system components and exhaust as well. Doing all that on my 302 project and will be making way less than 3hp per CI .. trying for 1.5. The 444 Pontiac trying for 1.125 with flat tappet and stud rocker. They are NA engines tho. I did see Eagle single pin odd-fire 4340 cranks on sale at Summit for 400$ was thinking this crank would take all the ponies I could make in the stock block or Stage block with Scat Pro-Comp I-beams or BME 500's if I had a few extra $ at the time. A set of custom pistons is less for a six than an 8 like the crank and rods. Kinda wondering where all the extra dollars being mentioned are?? I did see a factory exhaust setup was 1000.00$ Will do some more reading to find out I guess. To me 300HP would be a 200% increase in HP and a feat worth accomplishing for my application. Not sure what the foot feel of a 300HP turbo would be like. I have 2000.00 in my Pontiac block decked bored align-honed redoweled ARP main studded with Calico coated premium bearings. Would go through a similar process with the little V6 if trying for big ponies ... even if trying to Turbo for my current goal and have longevity. Guess part of my thought was the motor I have now on the shop floor does have 70+ thousand miles ... wouldnt hurt to rebuild for pm sake so whats the difference if I modify for turbo and blow something .. just rebuild with better parts saving the turbo stuff. More sensible and less wasteful to just use as my efi conversion testbed I guess.

 

[turbo89]

Isn't somebody on this site running a complete intercooled setup on a stock n/a long block? I'm sure I read this not too long ago.

YES ! .. more than a few and 300 hp on it is a joke .. it doesn't have a glass jaw

 

[Pronto]

I'ld just go with one of the new fi systems out there that replace a 4bbl carb. They self tune and are pretty much bolt on. It would save tons of time and effort. If you wanted to give blow through a shot it would work with that too.

 

[keithnh]

I was looking at FAST efi systems, one gripe I had about the carb V6 is awful mileage in my Cutlass for amount of power. Comparable to my 90 tbi Z71 I love the engine in. Looking back there is a possibility the TCC had issues I will never know now. I like to turn wrenches and modify things to learn .. not necessarily to be the fastest. FAST is expensive but probably best idea for ease of tuning. Think factory systems self-tune to a degree, I can get elements of them at low cost for experimentation. May just have machine shop drill manifold for injectors, truthfully wanted to do this on an Offy dual quad for Poncho and an Eddy RPM for 302 and was thinking maybe I can do at home if I have the right info. Save myself 200$*3. Doing several motors I have to pinch where I can. Need to know what injector, how deep I want it and which way to point for best fuel atomization. Centered with least blockage of port, nearest point of highest velocity would be my first guess. Would be nice if they were adjustable on a swivel somehow ... their placement might be critical.
From my reading I have come to the conclusion that the amount of power generated by an internal combustion engine is directly proportional to the amount of heat it generates and the thermal expansion that is a result. It is not an explosion taking place in the cylinder but a lighting off of a charge intended to create this expansion. Even detonation .. its just a premature light off. This concept along with air being pushed in by atmospheric pressure rather than pulled in by the piston going down are new ones to me I am still trying to fully grasp.Generating all the heat to make 800HP in a 6 must mean its distributed over less amount of parts and block and head space so the cooling system must have to have a greater capacity and components a better heat tolerance. This would be a disadvantage against a larger engine but possibly one readily surmountable.

Ordered a new Cloyes timing chain setup, Mellings oil pump rebuild kit, and polished rocker shafts for my 84 231 along with Buick turquoise brush on engine paint. Need to count my oil pan bolts and get VIN code to get right gasket set. Will check my bearings with pan off, might polish crank and install new ones if needed. Compression checked good ... will not mess with that. Not sure what rockers yet for new shafts centered or r+l pushrod cups. Will change out anything that looks marginal to have as stout an engine as I can without totally rebuilding.

 

[V6sleeper]

Your doing a lot of over thinking...Find an Lt1 94-96 swap, dirt cheap $800-1200 some people throw in a harness/cpu and sometimes the trans "4l60e", fuel inj, 275-300hp, easily modified to 400+, parts are cheap and available everywhere, smooth as silk running, it will take a light H-body into the 12s with its high torque.

 

[keithnh]

Well I have a running 231... and a running spare. Doesnt make sense to me to waste them. The stock 231 would move the H-body around fine as the car will be a worker bee for awhile. Will see if I can bump it up alittle. The car came factory with a 231 in Safari trim, the rest of the drivetrain including factory 4-speed trans bolts up with no modification. Have a 427 Pontiac custom in mind for when it transitions to race-car. Or maybe a turbo 231. Will see if I can become enthused about the sound of the V6. The little H-body sounded very nice with the Buick 215 and tubing headers ... trying to find the guy who bought it to see if he will forward me information on them. They were not cut.

 

[~JM~]

Your doing a lot of over thinking...Find an Lt1 94-96 swap, dirt cheap $800-1200 some people throw in a harness/cpu and sometimes the trans "4l60e", fuel inj, 275-300hp, easily modified to 400+, parts are cheap and available everywhere, smooth as silk running, it will take a light H-body into the 12s with its high torque.

You're just wasting your time. This guy doesn't want to listen. He had a desirable set-up with the 215 engine, but is unable to appreciate what he had.

This thread reminds me of what happens when you feed a stray animal.

 

[keithnh]

Pretty snooty comment JM. I bought the car minus the engine. I have 2 running 231's. Just examining the possibilities trying to use what I have. Nobody's twisting your arm to read the thread or add childish comments to it.

 

[~JM~]

Pretty snooty comment JM. I bought the car minus the engine. I have 2 running 231's. Just examining the possibilities trying to use what I have. Nobody's twisting your arm to read the thread or add childish comments to it.

The comments are hilarious at this point.

Its like watching someone trying to fill a bucket full of holes.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

Do it the way I think is correct or burn in hell.
Different is pretty much the equivalent of an antichrist.

A few guys on here also using stock NA cranks and making decent power. They aren't breaking any records but at least driving their stuff.

Dude have fun with what ever you build and post it up as you go.