Just how good was/is the V1 intercooler? Owners step in.

Some data from some IC calculations.....

Total Volume:
Height x Width x Depth = the total volume of the intercooler, which is an indirect measure of the internal surface area of the intercooler. The larger the volume, the larger the heat exchange surface area, the more heat we can sink out of the air in an extremely short period of time (the 100 milliseconds or so that the air spends inside the core). Obviously the bigger the volume, the better the cooling and the worse for pressure drop.
Volume of the core ( a bar and plate approximately) is LxWxH times the number of combustible air supply rows plus the end tank temperature factors (which are unique) to both entrance and exit end tanks. Volume of an extruded core is the surface area of the combustible air supply row shape (maybe resembles an ellipse) x the length of the row x the number of rows plus the end tank temperature factors (which are unique) to both entrance and exit end tanks. The end tank shapes and core interfaces can be a strong contributor to pressure drop and temperature. The relationship of work done (the removal of heat) to pressure drop is not solely dependent on the volume of the intercooler. However a large intercooler usually takes much longer to soak than a smaller unit. The use of "turbulators" inside each row scrub (perform work) on the air to transfer the heat from the air (hot air will seek a lower energy state; high to low or hot to cold). Thermal conductivity (watt x BTU/m^2) is expressed as such. These units express "physical work done" (watts; 746 watts=1 HP) x heat transferred (BTU) over a surface area (m^2) x sec. The V1 is a huge heat sink sitting in the wind. It probably rejects heat well but may not reject as well (energy in Jewels released/surface area x second) as later designs and possible material improvements and or process changes.
 
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To me,your analogy just illustrates what I've talked to you about before.
Air is the cooling medium as well as the charge that needs to be cooled ... hence the term "air to air".
It *sounds* like they screwed up on the design of the GNX I/C by trying to pack too much cooling ability in a core that didn't allow for adequate airflow across said core.
This is why I've always loved front mount I/C's.
For me it's all about the implementation and the results.
The numbers are just where you start.
John the GNX design was not screwed up. It had to package in the same volume as the stock unit, running another couple of pounds of boost and still deal with spark knock on 93 octane fuel which varies a lot. Why not increase the cores ability to deal with more air at a higher pressure /per unit of time and deduct from the core's long term heat rejection capability. These are obvious tradeoff's. That is part of the science which allowed the car to run how it did in a stock locate package.
 
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To me,your analogy just illustrates what I've talked to you about before.
Air is the cooling medium as well as the charge that needs to be cooled ... hence the term "air to air".
It *sounds* like they screwed up on the design of the GNX I/C by trying to pack too much cooling ability in a core that didn't allow for adequate airflow across said core.
This is why I've always loved front mount I/C's.
For me it's all about the implementation and the results.
The numbers are just where you start.
John the V1 is too good for my package considering folks have gone 7's on them. I don't disagree that the faster GN's are using them. However I don't see the value in the potential to handle many more pounds of air at pressure and temperature than my car will ever produce.
 
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John the V1 is too good for my package considering folks have gone 7's on them. I don't disagree that the faster GN's are using them. However I don't see the value in the potential to handle many more pounds of air at pressure and temperature than my car will ever produce.
Which is probably why they made a V2 unit..
 
John the GNX design was not screwed up. It had to package in the same volume as the stock unit, running another couple of pounds of boost and still deal with spark knock on 93 octane fuel which varies a lot. Why not increase the cores ability to deal with more air at a higher pressure /per unit of time and deduct from the core's long term heat rejection capability. These are obvious tradeoff's. That is part of the science which allowed the car to run how it did in a stock locate package.


Maybe I misread you,but it seems you mentioned GNX owners complaining about being beat by stock GN's and it being due to possible poor I/C design/implementation.
BTW the term "joule" is named for James Prescott Joule,a Brit' of all things - known for the first law thermodynamics [conservation of energy].
He was also a close associate of Lord Kelvin who developed the scale of temperature measurement used in science today.
Show some respect twinky.
Jeeze.
 
Maybe I misread you,but it seems you mentioned GNX owners complaining about being beat by stock GN's and it being due to possible poor I/C design/implementation.
BTW the term "joule" is named for James Prescott Joule,a Brit' of all things - known for the first law thermodynamics [conservation of energy].
He was also a close associate of Lord Kelvin who developed the scale of temperature measurement used in science today.
Show some respect twinky.
Jeeze.
Gnx owners being beaten by GN owners had no inference to poor design. Gnx intercoolers had a slower rate of heat rejection in continuous use as compared to the GN intercooler. The GNX intercooler was more track friendly than traffic friendly. The letters referenced street racing. John do the "work energy" equations and you will know Mr. Joule on a first name basis (LOL).
 
I'm pretty sure louie lopez went low 9's with a V2 intercooler and bet he could have gone much faster. The V2 was bigger than a PTE unit I think and the precision has been into the 8's.

I've used both version's of V1's with the Lonnie's version on my current car. I also have a V3 I picked up that will eventually get a try too. I can't tell you why I like their designs so much better than any other, but I do.
 
Gnx owners being beaten by GN owners had no inference to poor design. GNX intercoolers had a slower rate of heat rejection in continuous use as compared to the GN intercooler. The GNX intercooler was more track friendly than traffic friendly. The letters referenced street racing. John do the "work energy" equations and you will know Mr. Joule on a first name basis (LOL).

A slower rate of heat rejection?
It still sounds like someone screwed up to me.
Back to the discussion at hand.
There's a few undeniable facts about a good front mounts.

1. The core better be at LEAST as wide as the opening for the rad core.
If it isn't,your end tanks are blocking airflow to the condenser core/radiator core.
2. Given the above is true,what parameters are left to play with?
Thickness?
It's a known fact among I/C designers that the thicker a core gets,the more the returns diminish - as the air gets
hotter traveling across the core,it loses ability to absorb charge heat from the core do to the temp difference dropping.
That's the difference between the air inside and the air outside to you sports fans.
3. Core construction.
The two big ones are:
A: Bar and plate
B: Tube and fin.
Bar and plate is reputed to be better flowing - lower pressure drop across the internal core.
Extruded tube and fin - slightly more internal friction and a slightly higher pressure drop across the internal core.
Advances ave been made in both core designs over the years (with variations along the way)

Bar and plate has it's drawbacks:

The tubes are going to be weaker due to the seams along the tube lengths.
From an engineering standpoint,there is no arguing this.
Will the core hold up for what you're doing?
Probably.I don't see anyone running one at 60+ pounds of boost for extended periods of time.
These aren't Diesel trucks we're racing.
There's also the ease the cooling medium (airflow) can travel through the core as ambient airspeed gets
higher traveling through the core..
The entrance to each outside opening through the core presents a squared corner which causes turbulence and a
loss of flow through the passageway.
That's basic,irrefutable Fluid Mechanics.
With a rounded opening the air would pass easier into the openings between the rows and through the rows of
the core.
No dispute there .... it's obvious.
So you may have slightly better cooling ability across the internals,but if the ambient airflow through the core drops
as speed rises,all you're doing is pumping lots of poorly cooled air through to your engine as well as blocking flow
to your rad.
That might explain why some of the car and plate designs I've seen in the last few years are so darned thick!

Tube and fin:

An extruded,one piece tube is going to be stronger than a welded design of equal wall thickness and material spec.
The ambient airflow across the core will be greater for a given speed due to the rounded openings leading to
the cooling passages between the rows of the core.
One would think that an I/C like the V1 wouldn't be able to perform like it does due to these different factors,but
it does right down to the high sevens apparently.
The core thickness on the V1 was around 4.25",IIRC leaving about 1.5" between the I/C and front bumper rebar.
Compare that to some of the "monster coolers" that have been used to run into the 8's with little to no room between.
Is daily driving a problem for this I/C?
Not that I ever saw.
I had a three row,"high efficiency" recored rad',stock cooling fan,and the A/C condenser on my car with a trans cooler
up front and NEVER saw the high side of 185 degrees with a 160 stat' on board.
I think the reason the V1 was so successful was because Tony paid attention to the flow across the core with
good spacing between the rows - similar spacing to the stocker,according to write up at GN/TTYPE.org.
The tubes of the core appear to be a good grade of Aluminum alloy,not run of the mill base Aluminum.
The wall thickness of the tubes appear to be fairly thin,but not thin enough to comproimize structural integrity.
That's probably how it works so well at heat dissipation.
Rumor had it Tony was using OEM quality cores.
I don't doubt that when you consider who he worked for.
 
I'm pretty sure louie lopez went low 9's with a V2 intercooler and bet he could have gone much faster. The V2 was bigger than a PTE unit I think and the precision has been into the 8's.

I've used both version's of V1's with the Lonnie's version on my current car. I also have a V3 I picked up that will eventually get a try too. I can't tell you why I like their designs so much better than any other, but I do.

Louie went how fast?
Way to go Louie!
I think the "race" version of the PTE F/M went high 8's with a PTE 88 - might have been Joe Lubrant.
 
I'm pretty sure louie lopez went low 9's with a V2 intercooler and bet he could have gone much faster. The V2 was bigger than a PTE unit I think and the precision has been into the 8's.

I've used both version's of V1's with the Lonnie's version on my current car. I also have a V3 I picked up that will eventually get a try too. I can't tell you why I like their designs so much better than any other, but I do.
I have two V2's they are 13"h 23"w 3"D
I think one version of the V1 was 16"h 25"w 4.5"D but I think their was a race version V1 that was even bigger like 5.5"D
 
Here's a link to the original intercoolers
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/dequick-v2-ic.205714/

There are old and new versions of both the v1s and v2s... and I'd heard of the v1X which I believe Todd King and Cal both had one if I remembered rumors.

If I remember right, the first v1's and v2's were 3" thick cores. The newer ones were 3.5" to 4"inchers? I dont' think the X version was anymore than the 4.5 you have... the V3 is the double 3" core...seems like all of the above are good for high 8's "easy" if high 8's were "easy" anyway.
 
I have one of the first V1s Tony made that is the same size as the V2 but 4.5 thick. I have no data on it, it is my spare.

Sent from my SCH-I200 using TurboBuick Mobile mobile app
 
I have a couple ?s if I may.

What effect does pipe size have?
What effect does wind chill have? under say 75 mph mostly on the street over 75 strip.
What effect does boost pressure have? [18 lb street 25 or more strip.
 
I have all of the original CAS drawing and designs for the V1 intercooler straight from Tony himself. If anyone is interested in building them LMK. I just ran a set of 10 IC tubes that took a year to sell. The cores have to be purchased 6 at a time and were $300 a piece last time I bought them in 2007. I do however still have an account with the company who built them as they recently called me to update my info and I asked if they could still build them and they said yes and they are still made in the USA>

The IC's Lonnie was building were in fact the last version of the V1 IC Tony made with the materials coming directly from the same suppliers. They are not cheap to build and you can not complete with the Chinese stuff out there on the market.

That said, the V1 I had on my old TSO car was 20-25 above ambient in the traps no matter how hot the day or how much boost I ran.
 
Thanks for the info' guys.
I didn't realize there was different thicknesses of cores for the various CAS V F/M's.
I'm guessing Dave Fiscus is using the thicker version of the V1.
 
I have a couple ?s if I may.

What effect does pipe size have?
What effect does wind chill have? under say 75 mph mostly on the street over 75 strip.
What effect does boost pressure have? [18 lb street 25 or more strip.

I'll see if I can help here before Sherm' jumps in to rain on my parade:p

1. A larger pipe size should cut down on flow resistance,but will take a tick longer to fill and create back pressure - boost.
2. As was pointed out to me a long time ago,"wind chill" is an effect that occurs due to moisture evaporation from human skin.
It doesn't affect this situation,as far as I know.
3.More boost pressure means denser air which is harder to move and has more momentum than ambient air which will cause most airflow anommilies you see to be exaggerated over what you would see at ambient air pressure levels - 0 boost.
That's why the larger pipe flows with less resistance.
It's like moving 50,000 cars down a 20 mile stretch of 4 lane highway in one hour as opposed to doing it on a 2
lane highway.
You see this at rush hour around a lot of cities.
 
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