Methanol Straight or Meth /Water

[jimmag]

This seems like something I should Know. I have a 2010 ss Camaro w/ built motor, blown etc, low 10 sec car, had Snow meth injection system .
The entire Camaro group uses a mix of alcohol and water. I also have a GN built motor the usual stuff and everyone says not to use water . What am I missing guys ? Jim Maguire

 

[jasjamz]

What kit on your GN? Snow or ALKYCONTROL? No I'm not biased....what would lead you to that conclusion?

 

[Fast Farmer]

This seems like something I should Know. I have a 2010 ss Camaro w/ built motor, blown etc, low 10 sec car, had Snow meth injection system .
The entire Camaro group uses a mix of alcohol and water. I also have a GN built motor the usual stuff and everyone says not to use water . What am I missing guys ? Jim Maguire

Jim, I also screwed up and asked this question a while back. PM Razor, and he will bring you out of the darkness. Also, go look at Alkycontrol on the web. Razor owns the company.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

OHHH NOOOOOOOOOO
not again.

 

[charlief1]

OHHH NOOOOOOOOOO
not again.

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

That was more for the old Dogs "it works leave it alone" ARRGG types. thank god Buick didn't leave it alone and played with different things--Turbos and V6s other wise the GN would have SBC in them

 

[Royal-T-Ltd]

going back to the original question.... IMO i would ONLY run straight meth.... with a mixture you can never be too sure on actual percentage.... IMO meth is cheap enough i would rather know i have 99.9% meth and tune for that, than tune for 50/50 or whatever and come up short.......

 

[jasjamz]

Not all systems can run straight Meth. So again, which system?

 

[Jerryl]

Here are my thoughts on this reoccurring subject ;
Water - Heat of vaporization 2257 KJ/kg
Methanol- Heat of vaporization 1104 KJ/kg

Clearly, water has better properties for this intended application, IF, you can vaporize the injected liquid.
As the liquid is injected, the temp drops . . . . quickly! . . . but typically, the amount of liquid injected is constant or increases and all the liquid may no longer be vaporized. Add to that, the “boost pressure” . . . . . . Chemical engineering is not my cup of tea, but one can easily understand the increase in boiling temp when pressure increases.

If the injection system is unable to spray enough volume at the required pressure, and your MAT’s pre-spray are high enough to continue the evaporation of water, it will work great!

If the injection system CAN keep up with the required volume, AND the pressure/temp are too low to evaporate water, methanol/alky is the ticket.

The GN intake is not a “wet flow” design and this can create some problems. Therefore, you need to make sure the injected liquid is vaporized, in the VERY short distance available, to make the turn under pressure. The mass of any liquid approaching the speed of sound has incredible inertia and will not change direction unless forced to do so, period.

Theoretically, you can run MUCH more timing with water. On the other hand, the system will never achieve the MAT temps with water that can be had with methanol.
So, what makes more power?

From here, you can draw your own conclusion what will work for your application.

 

[Razor]

This seems like something I should Know. I have a 2010 ss Camaro w/ built motor, blown etc, low 10 sec car, had Snow meth injection system .
The entire Camaro group uses a mix of alcohol and water. I also have a GN built motor the usual stuff and everyone says not to use water . What am I missing guys ? Jim Maguire

You know its funny. GM comes out with a new widget car. The widget car gets a forum. All of a sudden the forum goes in a direction all on its own. Reminds me of the GTO forums.

Maybe said this way. Go to forums that have been there using the same computer and engines. Forums that support high dollar builds. See what you can dig up. Then look for those going fast or making a lot of HP and follow their lead. The forum closest to your application is corvetteforum. Then you have ls1tech.

You'll find your answer on corvetteforum pretty quick. And it wont be "mix" from anyone really pushing the envelope or making substantial power.

Dont use straight methanol on cheese ball plastic lines with pushin fittings. Dont use it with pumps built with viton or epdm.

Not all 2010 Camaro's use 50/50...

HTH

 

[jimmag]

Thanks for the information and the direction to look for more info .Sorry for agravating the people who have heard this question 1000 times before .I have an Alky Control via Otto on my Gn. I also have a BMW 335d with a chip and a Snow system ran low 13's(know it's got high 12's in it ) then clogged with 100 meth .The Snow system was removed from the Camaro .Don't want to bad mouth any products and I heard Snow has improved there stuff.
Thanks again,Jim Maguire

 

[Razor]

Otto will more than likely suggest 100% on the GN.

 

[jimmag]

Razor,Otto did and your product is installed. i'm trying to learn the tech side and your info help a lot, thanks. Lebanon Valley soon ! Jim

 

[TurboSlacker]

Shoot it neat and not on the rocks

 

[Grumpy]

Here are my thoughts on this reoccurring subject ;




Theoretically, you can run MUCH more timing with water. On the other hand, the system will never achieve the MAT temps with water that can be had with methanol.
So, what makes more power?

From here, you can draw your own conclusion what will work for your application.

Seriously instead of flapping YOUR gums why don't YOU show us with a BUICK how its done ?? Come on.. Do it !!

 

[Jerryl]

Seriously instead of flapping YOUR gums why don't YOU show us with a BUICK how its done ?? Come on.. Do it !!

Grumpy,
I would never argue ("flap my gums") your accomplishments or success. I am too smart for that.
I would also not "flap my gums" or argue the laws of physics. Too smart for that as well.

Did you read and attempt to understand the point I tried to make?
If I was younger and more energetic, I would execute a D.O.E and try water but I am happy with a mid 12 second car, and have no desire or intentions to set performance records with the Buick. My enjoyment with these cars comes in other ways.

Jet engines run water injection, but I would NEVER run water in MY Buick (I am sure you can see the difference in the application. ).
Let me repeat this so we don’t get into a misunderstanding/pissing match about my point of view . . . I would NEVER run water in MY Buick.
MY Buick is just not the correct application for water injection, especially not with a PAC.

Cheers.

 

[Ttype6]

MY Buick is just not the correct application for water injection,

Yes it is,but only if you inject it into the compressor of your turbo charger. Alcohol injection and water injection should never be compared to each other. Water is able to remove a lot more heat than alcohol,but it must be injected into a much hotter environment to do its job. The good news is that the compressor gets very hot. The Buick community doesn't see this fact as an opportunity to extract more power. If your going to inject an alcohol water mix,this is the only injection site that woks.

Injecting an alcohol/water mix at this location becomes less effective as you increase the amount of alcohol. Alcohol can't work its magic in this environment. It's too hot.

If you inject an alcohol/water mix after the intercooler and before the throttle body,it becomes less effective as you increase the amount of water. Water can't work its magic in this environment. It's too cool. 100 percent alcohol works the best in this location.

Another reason you can't compare the two is because alcohol is a fuel that adds octane and oxygen to the mixture.
I've seen people respond to threads about the fastest cars on 93 octane who are injecting alcohol. A motor running on 93 octane and alcohol injection isn't producing its power with 93 octane. When you inject alcohol you increase octane and oxygen.

Comparing these two liquids is not even like comparing 93 octane gasoline to nitro methane.
Water does things that alcohol can't do in one environment.
Alcohol does things water can't do in another environment.
Put each of them to work for you in their respective applications,but never compare them.

 

[Grumpy]

Grumpy,
I would never argue ("flap my gums") your accomplishments or success. I am too smart for that.
I would also not "flap my gums" or argue the laws of physics. Too smart for that as well.

Did you read and attempt to understand the point I tried to make?
If I was younger and more energetic, I would execute a D.O.E and try water but I am happy with a mid 12 second car, and have no desire or intentions to set performance records with the Buick. My enjoyment with these cars comes in other ways.

Jet engines run water injection, but I would NEVER run water in MY Buick (I am sure you can see the difference in the application. ).
Let me repeat this so we don’t get into a misunderstanding/pissing match about my point of view . . . I would NEVER run water in MY Buick.
MY Buick is just not the correct application for water injection, especially not with a PAC.

Cheers.

nuff said ... So Charlie what about YOU ???? Come step up to the plate !!

 

[Jerryl]

Yes it is,but only if you inject it into the compressor of your turbo charger. Alcohol injection and water injection should never be compared to each other. Water is able to remove a lot more heat than alcohol,but it must be injected into a much hotter environment to do its job. The good news is that the compressor gets very hot. The Buick community doesn't see this fact as an opportunity to extract more power. If your going to inject an alcohol water mix,this is the only injection site that woks.

Injecting an alcohol/water mix at this location becomes less effective as you increase the amount of alcohol. Alcohol can't work its magic in this environment. It's too hot.

If you inject an alcohol/water mix after the intercooler and before the throttle body,it becomes less effective as you increase the amount of water. Water can't work its magic in this environment. It's too cool. 100 percent alcohol works the best in this location.

Another reason you can't compare the two is because alcohol is a fuel that adds octane and oxygen to the mixture.
I've seen people respond to threads about the fastest cars on 93 octane who are injecting alcohol. A motor running on 93 octane and alcohol injection isn't producing its power with 93 octane. When you inject alcohol you increase octane and oxygen.

Comparing these two liquids is not even like comparing 93 octane gasoline to nitro methane.
Water does things that alcohol can't do in one environment.
Alcohol does things water can't do in another environment.
Put each of them to work for you in their respective applications,but never compare them.

I agree 100% with your statements.
I am convinced that if done correctly there is a potential benefit. In my mind this would imply; Injecting very small amount of water while maintaining >220F during injection.
You have to walk the path less traveled to make progress. To many, this type of “testing/R&D” is meaningless and a waste of time . . . . BUT . . . . To me, this is the most exciting part of playing with these cars. For me, it is less about running a 9 second pass than proving or disproving a specific theory. People sometimes forget that not everyone has the desire to build a 9 second car.

Having said all that . . . .There is MUCH more benefit of water injection in a non-IC’d set-up since there is no chance of water condensation in the IC.
I do not have the means, time, or energy to run an accurate test to determine the benefit on the Buick Application . . . . . So, for my final comment in this thread . . . I agree 100% with you, but will stick to methanol.

 

[charlief1]

nuff said ... So Charlie what about YOU ???? Come step up to the plate !!

He's 100% right Dan. I've already stated that when the car's back together I will be running a 50/50 mix in it as well as a few other trick, and no nitrous. Some of the B4black guys keep trying to get me to run nitrous but I don't believe in using it. I also finally got the directions for the controler that I bought some time ago so I've got to test it and see if ti's good or if I need to get another one.