no knock with e85
- Thread starter TurboGN86
- Start date
Need more info. Stock engine, compression ratio? What timing are you running at 18 psi of boost?
idk what the timing is the motor is stock, te-44, 60's fp is 45#'s. i was just curious as to what e85 does with a mostly stock motor. i mean i understand an upgraded fuel pump etc. but stock lines and stuff whats the down side besides the gas milage is ****ty? u run more boost and get more power right?
murphinator
Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2008
at 50/50 you are somewhere around 12or 12.5 to 1 afr as stoich instead of 14.7
what it did to kill your knock is add cooling to the intake charge which any alcohol fuel will do (ethanol or methanol) and it added octane
e85 is a marketing name for a series of fuels that can range between 70-85% ethanol depending on geographic location and time of the year.
warm climate or summer it will be approx 85% ethanol , cold climate and winter it will be 70% ethanol , cold climate and in spring or fall while the fuel is transitioning between blends it can be anywhere in the 70's %
85% ethanol is around 112 octane, 70% ethanol is minimum of 105 octane hence the pumps rating of 105 minimum octane rating. any alcohol fuel will provide the added benefit of its cooling properties to reduce detonation along with the fact it has a lower stoich so you need more of it for proper afr which puts more liquid in the cylinders to quench heat.
as mentioned if you are running 50% without tuning for it you should probably consider getting a wideband on it because you are very likely running lean and likely also that you would need an upgrade or 2 to your fuel system to run that percentagebut I will leave that to the GN guys on here that know your mods and what needs to be in place to run a 50/50 mix , allthough a friends 3800 S2 SC I was tuning on tonight runs e30 on stock fuel system and still has a bit of headroom left but not enough to get to 50/50 , next up is bigger injectors so we can mix it 50/50 and pulley it down further
if you mixed 85% ethanol with 93 pump gas 50/50 you are around 102 octane , if you mixed 70% ethanol with 93 pupm gas 50/50 you are around 99 octane
you could/should be able to get similar results also with mixing 20% xylene with premium fuel to kill knock without any significant change to stoich
what it did to kill your knock is add cooling to the intake charge which any alcohol fuel will do (ethanol or methanol) and it added octane
e85 is a marketing name for a series of fuels that can range between 70-85% ethanol depending on geographic location and time of the year.
warm climate or summer it will be approx 85% ethanol , cold climate and winter it will be 70% ethanol , cold climate and in spring or fall while the fuel is transitioning between blends it can be anywhere in the 70's %
85% ethanol is around 112 octane, 70% ethanol is minimum of 105 octane hence the pumps rating of 105 minimum octane rating. any alcohol fuel will provide the added benefit of its cooling properties to reduce detonation along with the fact it has a lower stoich so you need more of it for proper afr which puts more liquid in the cylinders to quench heat.
as mentioned if you are running 50% without tuning for it you should probably consider getting a wideband on it because you are very likely running lean and likely also that you would need an upgrade or 2 to your fuel system to run that percentagebut I will leave that to the GN guys on here that know your mods and what needs to be in place to run a 50/50 mix , allthough a friends 3800 S2 SC I was tuning on tonight runs e30 on stock fuel system and still has a bit of headroom left but not enough to get to 50/50 , next up is bigger injectors so we can mix it 50/50 and pulley it down further
if you mixed 85% ethanol with 93 pump gas 50/50 you are around 102 octane , if you mixed 70% ethanol with 93 pupm gas 50/50 you are around 99 octane
you could/should be able to get similar results also with mixing 20% xylene with premium fuel to kill knock without any significant change to stoich
In this recent study by Delphi and Oakridge Labs there was very little difference between E85 and E50 for RON and MON. Sort of long- maybe a winter reading project but you can quickly find what I am saying;
http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2010-01-0619.pdf
As pointed out the AFR of E50 is different than gas and even E85 so you are likely lean- saved only so far by the cooling/detonation resistance of this fuel. Power was down slightly since AFR was not corrected?
http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2010-01-0619.pdf
As pointed out the AFR of E50 is different than gas and even E85 so you are likely lean- saved only so far by the cooling/detonation resistance of this fuel. Power was down slightly since AFR was not corrected?
pontiac69fb
Member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2004
Like what the above said, E-85 is a great fuel and it is less prone to predetonation. E-85 does require more fuel than regular gas, so you will need bigger injectors I suggest 72lbs or more for maximum headroom, and possibly two fuel pumps depending on the hp desired. I would suggest talking to Eric at Turbo Tweak and order an E-85 chip for your combo.
My car makes the same power on e-85 as it does with 112 octane race gas. Which is pretty awesome considering e-85 is 2.49 and the race gas was 7.30.
My car makes the same power on e-85 as it does with 112 octane race gas. Which is pretty awesome considering e-85 is 2.49 and the race gas was 7.30.
supramantrm
Member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2003
I run your set up and at 30% e-85 bought some new head gaskets ,so tune for it if your gonna run it .I have a wideband but now will be going to a new eric TT chip ect.I only max boost at 19 too.
supramantrm
Member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2003
what was the duty cycle on your injectors?What size ?What management,chip,fast,ect?What pump set up?
I`m on 60`s as the poster ,single hot wire kit,alky,and just ordered the power logger and eric`s wideband adjustment chip for e-85.I`m wondering exactly how to set it all up?
I noticed your AF`s were 7`s and i was thinking 10`s.How did you decide on 7`s on a dyno or street & strip tune or was it a chip that was set up for that # at WOT?
Thanks for any help you can lend.Terry
I`m on 60`s as the poster ,single hot wire kit,alky,and just ordered the power logger and eric`s wideband adjustment chip for e-85.I`m wondering exactly how to set it all up?
I noticed your AF`s were 7`s and i was thinking 10`s.How did you decide on 7`s on a dyno or street & strip tune or was it a chip that was set up for that # at WOT?
Thanks for any help you can lend.Terry
jasjamz
THS Racer
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2004
Thats the default reading the powerlogger will give if the wideband is not present. Steve may be able to give you ideas on a good A/F starting point.
Turbo Loyd
Member
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Got a hold of a table by Mark Sullens off Yellow Bullet Forums - Powered by vBulletin
Remember the scaling of the Air/Fuel ratio is dependent on the scale you are using. I prefer to use lambda as it takes the guess work out of the scale you use. Lambda is lambda no matter what scale you are using.
Use the Gasoline scale for A/F meters calibrated for gasoline even when using E85 as your fuel.
Here is the full table as a downloadable PDF file
E-85 Fuel Ratio download-able PDF
Remember the scaling of the Air/Fuel ratio is dependent on the scale you are using. I prefer to use lambda as it takes the guess work out of the scale you use. Lambda is lambda no matter what scale you are using.
Use the Gasoline scale for A/F meters calibrated for gasoline even when using E85 as your fuel.
Here is the full table as a downloadable PDF file
E-85 Fuel Ratio download-able PDF
BEATAV8
The Engine Whisperer
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2002
Jason is correct, no wideband sensor installed on this car. Just using the stock narrow band and old school tuning mentality. No knock on the run out through the gears and keep the O2's between 760 and 800 at the top of 3rd.
It's a running a TA49, stock motor, stock torque converter, 80lb squirters @ 75%-80% (it's shown in the screen shot). Single 340 pump, hotwired, stock fuel lines and rail. SMC kit squirting methanol. Standard E85 TT chip.
I actually prefer NOT to use wideband correction. The sensor could fail and cause problems. That's purely just a preference... I like to set up the tune where I want it and just keep it in check.
It'll trap 115mph @ 5300RPM in the heat of summer and doesn't have much of anything done to it. That's about 450HP at the wheels w/ my big azz in the car.
If you run your 60's to 100% with E85 and have a big methanol pump under the hood, you should be able to boogie out pretty damn good. Stock motor, decent turbo, good torque converter with good coupling capability, and 28" tires.... 30 or 32 psi of boost... it'll scoot.
supramantrm
Member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2003
great responces thanks alot
BEATAV8
The Engine Whisperer
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2002
I just noticed your sig....
If you're looking to run E85 with the 210/210 cam and ported heads you'll want to look at bigger injectors and a double pumper. To start with, see what you can do with the 60's and the alky kit you have then go from there.
I have another car (not the one described above)... it's closer to your heads / cam combo. I'm setting that one up for E85 with 120's, double pumper, Razor methanol....
Brian Verson
Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2001
e-85
I am running stright e-85 and im loving it . Had 60's with a t64e turbo , just got 120's with a 70mm bb t-net. Looking to go deep into the tens maybe 9's. You guys are going to have to upgrade the fuel lines as well as the pump. You need to remember that you need 30% more fuel going to the injectors as well. I'm going with 10an feed up and 6/8 an return. Going to be alot of fun .
I am running stright e-85 and im loving it . Had 60's with a t64e turbo , just got 120's with a 70mm bb t-net. Looking to go deep into the tens maybe 9's. You guys are going to have to upgrade the fuel lines as well as the pump. You need to remember that you need 30% more fuel going to the injectors as well. I'm going with 10an feed up and 6/8 an return. Going to be alot of fun .
