Will a distributor fit with stock setup?

[TurboTR]

Well... maybe. The difference in "heat" buildup between the 2 probably does not correlate simply to how often it fires since the 2 firing approaches are so radically different. The inductive system is "filling" if you will with a high current flow for quite a bit of time (some 3-5ms or so if available) when it is not firing. Otoh the CDI does not have to dwell and "fill" the coil at all; it basically just sits there until the brief instant that ~ 450V is applied across the primary. Hard to say for sure who runs cooler in that case in my opinion.

TurboTR

 

[bruce]

Well... maybe. The "heat" buildup probably does not correlate simply to how often it fires since the 2 firing approaches are so radically different. The inductive system is "filling" if you will with a high current flow for quite a bit of time (some 3-5ms or so if available) when it is not firing. Otoh the CDI does not have to dwell and "fill" the coil at all; it basically just sits there until the brief instant that ~ 450V is applied across the primary. Hard to say for sure who runs cooler in that case in my opinion.

TurboTR

Set them up on a bench, and run them both for a while. The GM Training Center in Cincinatti, had a great bench to do that with, thou with just conventional coils.

They're claim was that alot of the heat with non CD systems, was from the fields collasping (within the coil), with CD, there coil/ condenser oscillations are almost none existant compared to a conventional coil.


For those just tuning in, a coil takes an instant to actually fire, when the points open. Just to make the math simple a coil with a 100:1 winding ratio, will only make 1,400v with a 14 primary voltage, it's when that second field from the 1,400 collapses that drives the secondary to a high enough potential to fire the plug. Once the spark starts, the decaying *coil/ condensor oscillations keep the voltage high enough to maintain the spark.

 

[TurboTR]

I would say that flowing many amps across the ~ 1/2 Ohm primary resistance for relatively long periods is probably the main factor in the heat equation, esp considering that power in this case is proportional to the square of that high primary current flow. 20 amps across 1/2 Ohm is some 200W of loss. Kinda hard to ignore that IMO. Not that I really care either way, as long as each system stays within it's intended operating range.

If you consider only pure transformer action as in when a simple sinewave is applied to the primary then yes, 14v x 100:1 is 1400v out the secondary. But in an inductive ignition system, when the points open there is a large inductive kickback voltage developed across the primary. This kickback voltage is what causes the points to arc over and quickly burn for example, and why a "condensor" capacitor was also placed across the points to help limit the kickback arc and cushion the blow. This kickback voltage across the primary could rise to literally thousands of volts if allowed to. The result is, the primary voltage driving the secondary spark output in an inductve system is much higher (thanks to the inductive kickback) than the mere 12-14v system voltage applied to the primary to charge the coil.

TurboTR

 

[V6RACER]

The ecm just tells whatevers on the other end when to fire. It's just generating the same darned *dwell* signal as the distributor would. Once you go to CD, all that unit really looks at is the point open, ie time to fire signal. With a conventional coil, dwell is important since you're trying to *saturate* the coil with just a 12v potential across the ign coil, with CDs it's ~400 volts. Using this 400 volts gives, what's called a faster rise time.

*Spark energy* is generally rated in mj. Mili-joules. An HEI is in the nieghborhood of 20-30 mj, a CD can go from 90-170 mj.. Now with a CD the coil dumps, it's potential electrical energy in just several msecs., while a conventional coil, can maintain it's potential for well over .5 sec.. So what the CD guys try to do, is generate several sparks, to make up for this lack of spark duration.

The critical part in all this thou, is what's happening in the combustion chamber. Once the coil sees the signal to fire, the voltage starts to build, across the spark plugs electrodes. As the voltage builds, there are some atoms torn off the electrodes, and this becomes the ion trail, that the spark follows (just like in the lightning photos were there are all sorts of trace spark events before the lightning strike).

There are as many manufacturing theories about ignitions, as there are cam manufacturers.. It seems all the good entry level ignition text books are now gone, and about the most informative one around nowadays, is Dr Jacobs book How to Optimise Your Ignition System. But, it's tainted since the good Dr is also selling his own brand of ignition systems. If you look up some of the patents quoted on the various ignition bits, you'll see some of the patents have little to nothing to do with the way the unit really works.

While there is some personal preference, there are some items that just don't work, or are troublesome. A quick search here, will show a trail of problems with the DIS4, but some folks have had good luck with them.

If you want to *think*, or *guess*, feel free to, but research and understanding what's going on will always make your car faster, and less prone to breakage.

For the EE's of the group, I'm just trying to put things in lay terms to answer his guestions.

I realize that you have an opinion on all of this and alot of other stuff, but when it comes down to it some people want to step outside the closed mindedness and search for more realiable and exact ways of doing things. I am not an EE but I do have some knowledge of it. That being said, Wouldn't it make sense to get every bit of electrical energy to each plug on every compression stroke instead of "wasting" energy on the cylinders that do not have fuel and air? If the C3I is so good why don't they use it on Top Fuel? Pro stock? or any other type of high horsepower applications? If you haven't noticed, most all HP cars that are being produced now have COP setups. This would be the ideal setup if you wanted to wire it up on a Buick. You have a whole cycle to recharge the coils on that setup.. My post above was to gather real evidence as to what type of box and coil to use when you swap over. I would like to see what some of the high HP Buick guys discuss what works and what don't.. This has nothing to do with the C3I or DIS4 ignition.

 

[bruce]

I realize that you have an opinion on all of this and alot of other stuff, but when it comes down to it some people want to step outside the closed mindedness and search for more realiable and exact ways of doing things.

I am not an EE but I do have some knowledge of it. That being said, Wouldn't it make sense to get every bit of electrical energy to each plug on every compression stroke instead of "wasting" energy on the cylinders that do not have fuel and air?

If the C3I is so good why don't they use it on Top Fuel? Pro stock? or any other type of high horsepower applications?

If you haven't noticed, most all HP cars that are being produced now have COP setups. This would be the ideal setup if you wanted to wire it up on a Buick. You have a whole cycle to recharge the coils on that setup.. My post above was to gather real evidence as to what type of box and coil to use when you swap over. I would like to see what some of the high HP Buick guys discuss what works and what don't.. This has nothing to do with the C3I or DIS4 ignition.

The closed mindedness, IMO, is when one just follows the pack.

There is no wasted spark energy with DIS, the term wastespark goes back decades... However with a distributor the spark energy used to cross the cap rotor air gap is wasted energy.

COP=CNP, I've mentioned it several times now, and in fact just a few posts ago when I was talking about MSD's new products.

BTW, I have run a eDist, and CNP on my GN.

Rules.....
Budgets, old wive's tales.

Excuse me for quoting you, but you also said:
"On cars with aftermarket engine management I would think it would be an improvement over the stock setup"

I was just trying to clarify that for you, you're the one that was making an assumption.

 

[quickt]

Bruce,
Please explain in detail how code is going to affect the problem with the C3I module when you cut the est signal for ignition rev-limiting. Also please explain how the code is going to cut out one half of the coil so the fuel in the cut cylinder is not going to fire even by accident. I would also suggest that you contact the Pro-stock guys, top fuel and other and let them know that the use of a distributor is no better than the C3I. I am sure with thier budgets they will have no problem contracting you for this work. I am not sure why you have such issues with aftermarket ECMs, Dist etc. I do notice that you tend to hijack a thread when it does not seem to go along with your thinking. I aways hear how the stock ecm is better. Why does every car I take one off of and install even an old Gen6 go faster? All we care is that are cars go faster with less hassel. The aftermarket ECU gives us that.

 

[bruce]

Bruce,
Please explain in detail how code is going to affect the problem with the C3I module when you cut the est signal for ignition rev-limiting.

Also please explain how the code is going to cut out one half of the coil so the fuel in the cut cylinder is not going to fire even by accident.

I would also suggest that you contact the Pro-stock guys, top fuel and other and let them know that the use of a distributor is no better than the C3I.

I am sure with thier budgets they will have no problem contracting you for this work. I am not sure why you have such issues with aftermarket ECMs, Dist etc. I do notice that you tend to hijack a thread when it does not seem to go along with your thinking. I aways hear how the stock ecm is better. Why does every car I take one off of and install even an old Gen6 go faster? All we care is that are cars go faster with less hassel. The aftermarket ECU gives us that.

Ignition cutting for rev limiting, is just one option. Cutting fuel can be used.
Once you get past that the EST isn't an issue. And if one uses a *Quick Start* GM ignition even cutting the EST isn't an issue.

If you use a fuel cut, then there's no mystery fuel or ignition mislighting issue.

Top Fuel uses magnetos.
Pro-Stock the last I looked had to use a single coil.

I'm not hijacking anything, there were questions asked, miss statements, and *I thinks* posted, and all I tried to do was answer them.

Have you noticed the aftermarkets, are getting more and more complex?.
Going fast hassle free is a great goal, what's your issue for not wanting to press them for the best possible?. If you want to stick with a Gen VI, fine by me, if you want to go to an XFI, I really couldn't care.

Too bad, discussion gets you labled as being anti something anymore.

Maybe you know everything I posted, and that's fine too, but, I'd imagine someone might have learned something.

While your allowed your opinion, about the aftermarkets being better, why shouldn't I have the same priviledge of thinking the oems are decent?.
BTW, when I did buy a Gen VI, it took a $200 repair to fix the IAC driver. While you might be perfectly happy with the start-up fueling, and IAC operation, that doesn't mean everyone has to share your opinion.

If you see pointing out different strategies as something to be avoided, well, we might as well just all play follow the leader.

 

[norbs]

Bruce, have you ever put a timing light on your car? Was the reading rock steady or jumping all over? at idle?

 

[quickt]

Bruce,
You know about the issue of cutting est on the C3I I assume so you agree that code will not fix that problem as you stated. We are not running into limitations are we? Please explain why fuel cut will work as a safe way to limit engine RPM. We are holding car on the line say at about 15psi wouldn’t fuel cut cause a cylinder to go lean?

I know what pro stock and top fuel use silly. The point is that the guys who are not limited to what they can use and have unlimited budgets do not use waste spark or C3I modules. They use some form of distributor. If you know the waste spark to be a better system let them in on your secret.

If you count your post in the last page seems the you are over 1/3 of the post are yours maybe not a hijack but close.

Yes the after markets are getting more complex because that’s what the buyers want. They are still easier to tune and use than what you explain about the stock ecm. I do want the best and do push for what I want. Call DFI they know me by name and have all my phone numbers. They will tell you the same.

I agree we are all in titled to our opinion. Not saying that stock stuff is not decent. It just does not compare to the new after market stuff. We can do something real life to compare rather than just debate the issue if you like. Nothing against you but no one likes a telemarketer that continues to call after he has been told you are not interested.

 

[norbs]

Your coded ecm's are not for sale , so how does all this code help me? Or anyone?

 

[bruce]

Bruce,
You know about the issue of cutting est on the C3I I assume so you agree that code will not fix that problem as you stated. We are not running into limitations are we? Please explain why fuel cut will work as a safe way to limit engine RPM. We are holding car on the line say at about 15psi wouldn’t fuel cut cause a cylinder to go lean?

I know what pro stock and top fuel use silly. The point is that the guys who are not limited to what they can use and have unlimited budgets do not use waste spark or C3I modules. They use some form of distributor. If you know the waste spark to be a better system let them in on your secret.

If you count your post in the last page seems the you are over 1/3 of the post are yours maybe not a hijack but close.

Yes the after markets are getting more complex because that’s what the buyers want. They are still easier to tune and use than what you explain about the stock ecm. I do want the best and do push for what I want. Call DFI they know me by name and have all my phone numbers. They will tell you the same.

I agree we are all in titled to our opinion. Not saying that stock stuff is not decent. It just does not compare to the new after market stuff. We can do something real life to compare rather than just debate the issue if you like. Nothing against you but no one likes a telemarketer that continues to call after he has been told you are not interested.

The problem only exists since no one wants to do an alternative. If everyone is going to think and do the same thing, progess stops.

There is a difference between a fuel cut, and leaness. With no fuel, there is no fire, and no possibility of fire, much less leaness.

First you make a statement, and then dodge it (the top fuel comment). It's not always about money, or what's best, there are rules involved.

My secret?. All I've done is explained things, if you want to argue, at least listen. BTW, no where have I stated that one is better then the other, I've just asked questions, and stated facts.

Again, your perfectly entitled to your opinions, and so am I. I could care less who you know, at what ecm manufacturer.

Your the one that's taken to hijacking the thread with opinion. I matter of factly stated facts, and tried to explain things.

 

[bruce]

Your coded ecm's are not for sale , so how does all this code help me? Or anyone?

It's called being an informed customer/ consumer. If you have no background, or don't think outside the box, all you'll ever do is be lead around, and hope the advertising is truthful.

Remember this statement?
* I have to go to the distributer to use certain feautures of the gen 7. I.e 2 step and over boost and ignition rev limiting.*

Yes, while true for the time being, maybe if enough people said they wanted those options for DIS, then the code guys would accomodate you.

 

[chevyII]

The bottom line is this whatever box ECM or XFI you use it just turns the injectors on and off. You can change the curve and mixtures easier with aftermarket and may see more power. Same goes for the ignition. But if going to a distributor gains X power at lets say 900HP over the stocker then your exceding the limits of practical use for the system. Plus it will live longer also,no brainer to me.

 

[quickt]

It's called being an informed customer/ consumer. If you have no background, or don't think outside the box, all you'll ever do is be lead around, and hope the advertising is truthful.

Remember this statement?
* I have to go to the distributer to use certain feautures of the gen 7. I.e 2 step and over boost and ignition rev limiting.*

Yes, while true for the time being, maybe if enough people said they wanted those options for DIS, then the code guys would accomodate you.

Bruce,
I can see this is a waste of time. What I say is opinion and what you say is fact. You will never meet on the middle. The top fuel comment is as is. A mag and dist both distribute spark. Bottom line they are not DIS waste spark. Sorry did not know you were looking for a hidden message. I respect that you dont care who I know at an ECM manufacture or what ECU I like. Please respect the fact that I dont care what you have to say about what a stock ECU can do that no one can buy. As for my opinion. I guess the fact that a car from your area went from mid 11s with your ECU stuff to 10.40s after I hung a old gen6 on that you sold them was not good enough. I will be more than glad to pay for the use of a chassis dyno so we can test my opinion and your facts. Lets see how your arm chair facts and my opinions hold up in real life and post the results here for all to see. Stock ecm v/s the Gen7, dist v/s C3I. Stop running your mouth and put up or shut up. You know you are correct about one thing. Unlike yourself I know when I am hijacking a topic and not adding info so I will move on not waste anymore of anyones time. Like a Jehovah witness you will be preaching long after the door has been closed in your face. I will no longer exchange with you here. If you want to continue this you know my e-mail address. The floor is all yours tell any story you like.


FACT- The aftermarket ECU already works with DIS. The C3I module is the problem. You say code can correct this issue yet you dont bother to explain the simple questions I asked. You wont even admit that there is an issue with the C3I and cutting EST. Code can not correct this issue. You say it can show me.

FACT- no fuel no heat no boost. Not a good way to rev limit. The thrasher was not worth a crap at it either.

FACT- You have explained nothing. You have thrown out so much bull crap not sure what was fact or theory or just crap.

 

[bruce]

Bruce,
I can see this is a waste of time.

FACT- The aftermarket ECU already works with DIS. The C3I module is the problem. You say code can correct this issue yet you dont bother to explain the simple questions I asked. You wont even admit that there is an issue with the C3I and cutting EST. Code can not correct this issue. You say it can show me.

FACT- You have explained nothing. You have thrown out so much bull crap not sure what was fact or theory or just crap.

Maybe to you, but you're not the one running things are you?.

Maybe then you should read up on the material, and then try to discuss it.

The type of ecm was never an issue with me, I was talking about the code end of things. If you like not having any choices, that's fine, but then again, not everyone thinks like you. Paying $400 for a $150 sensor, fine go ahead, but, that's also your opinion. Maybe you just like to throw money around, but again, not everyone might.

So dropping spark and leaving fuel around does less cooling the dropping the fuel?. I guess then we just hope when your spark comes back on, there's just not too much fuel laying around to drop the EGT even more, or blow the plug out completely, or worse yet partically. Then all you know is that something was off, and not exactly what.

As far as fact and the EST, I guess ignoring my response is one way of saying it can't be done. Anyway here's a quick explaination, the Quick Start uses two shutter wheels on the crank. One has 3 windows, and the other 18. The windows overlap differently, ie the inner one before the outer, then at one clocking of the windows they open at the same time, and then the third option is having the outter window open first. That way the module knows exactly which coil pack to fire, at the next *point open* signal the ecm sends. Does that explain it well enough?. Oh, and just for grins, with that type of set-up, one could also set up a misfire detection system. Wouldn't it be nice to know after a pass, which cylinder was laying down, if there was a problem, or better yet, have the computer tell you which one was *off*, even if you didn't notice it?.

Just to back up a little and try to get back to the original posting, *HAVING* to change to a distributor just to get some options, can be cured with some simple code changes.

As far as the 100 HP claim, on a 1,500 HP engine, while one might wish that it means 50 HP on a 750, if just as easily could mean 0 HP at 1,300 HP. Not to mention no one's said if it was a stock DIS to CD Distributor comparison.


Maybe there needs to be some rule changes to allow Magnetos, and carbs in TRs, since Top Fuel uses magnetos, and PS uses carbs...

 

[ttypewe4jim]

If it was not for the fact that norb is trying to also unlock some features with the DFI why not go with a set up simular to the ls-x series motors? I havent even remotely looked into it just thinking out loud sorta

 

[quickt]

Maybe to you, but you're not the one running things are you?.

Maybe then you should read up on the material, and then try to discuss it.

The type of ecm was never an issue with me, I was talking about the code end of things. If you like not having any choices, that's fine, but then again, not everyone thinks like you. Paying $400 for a $150 sensor, fine go ahead, but, that's also your opinion. Maybe you just like to throw money around, but again, not everyone might.

So dropping spark and leaving fuel around does less cooling the dropping the fuel?. I guess then we just hope when your spark comes back on, there's just not too much fuel laying around to drop the EGT even more, or blow the plug out completely, or worse yet partically. Then all you know is that something was off, and not exactly what.

As far as fact and the EST, I guess ignoring my response is one way of saying it can't be done. Anyway here's a quick explaination, the Quick Start uses two shutter wheels on the crank. One has 3 windows, and the other 18. The windows overlap differently, ie the inner one before the outer, then at one clocking of the windows they open at the same time, and then the third option is having the outter window open first. That way the module knows exactly which coil pack to fire, at the next *point open* signal the ecm sends. Does that explain it well enough?. Oh, and just for grins, with that type of set-up, one could also set up a misfire detection system. Wouldn't it be nice to know after a pass, which cylinder was laying down, if there was a problem, or better yet, have the computer tell you which one was *off*, even if you didn't notice it?.

Just to back up a little and try to get back to the original posting, *HAVING* to change to a distributor just to get some options, can be cured with some simple code changes.

As far as the 100 HP claim, on a 1,500 HP engine, while one might wish that it means 50 HP on a 750, if just as easily could mean 0 HP at 1,300 HP. Not to mention no one's said if it was a stock DIS to CD Distributor comparison.


Maybe there needs to be some rule changes to allow Magnetos, and carbs in TRs, since Top Fuel uses magnetos, and PS uses carbs...

Bruce,
Answer the questions stop skirting it.
Does the stock C3I rev limit clean dropping EST?
Can you write a code to make this work properly?
Do you want to prove your theory on a dyno rather than run your mouth?

 

[V6RACER]

The closed mindedness, IMO, is when one just follows the pack.

Excuse me for quoting you, but you also said:
"On cars with aftermarket engine management I would think it would be an improvement over the stock setup"

I was just trying to clarify that for you, you're the one that was making an assumption.

Following the pack may be the right way sometimes.. Think about what would have happend if everyone didn't follow the aftermarket chip, fuel pump, turbo, exhaust, heads, etc.. We would all have stock cars with no chance of running very fast..

As far as the assumption, I have talked to several people that have seen increases in performance from changing over to a distributor setup. Not just one person, but several.

 

[John Wilde]

There are a couple PRO 5.0 Cars with Mags and my Friends Outlaw 10.5 Twin Turbo have a Mag. I considered trying one on my stage two junk.

 

[bruce]

Following the pack may be the right way sometimes.. Think about what would have happend if everyone didn't follow the aftermarket chip, fuel pump, turbo, exhaust, heads, etc.. We would all have stock cars with no chance of running very fast..

As far as the assumption, I have talked to several people that have seen increases in performance from changing over to a distributor setup. Not just one person, but several.

Like you said, *may be*. I'll I've done is offer alternate thoughts about *why* it worked, and asked what the comparisons were.

It's asking questions, and experimenting that moves things forward. Which is what I've been pointing out.


From what of set-up?.
ie stock DIS, late model DIS, one cd/coil pack?.