200r4 Setup Problems........

[SSDuane]

I'm installing a rebuilt 200r4 to replace a Powerglide in a '63 Impala restoration. I've just finished installing it & put in the fluid, started it up & tried to set the new TV Cable by using a pressure gauge, by pulling out the inside black plastic piece until the pressure stops dropping, then back until it starts to increase, then locking it. (I'm sure this sounds familiar). The only problem is the pressure never changed, no matter what. It was about 97 when I started; the first time I moved it, I noticed the engine actually went down in rpm a little, then it stayed at 92. At 600rpm idle, rear tires jacked up, I ran through the gears: Pressure was Park-92, Rev.-170, Neut-92, D4-95, D3-95, D2-125, D1-125. Before I did all this, I took the pan off to put the new gears in & check the Throttle valve. The piston sticking out could be depressed with fairly light pressure, until it got close to all the way in, then hard pressure. It would then return all the way out to its own stop.

So......do I have a stuck valve? a bad valve? a bad rebuild? And what is a "shift kit"? and is that what I should put in? and can I do all this myself? and if I take the 4 bolts out that appear to expose this entire valve, will everything fly apart all over the floor? and, ..... and,..... Well, you get the idea. What should I do?
Stuck in Indy
SSDuane

 

[HOTTOGO]

I only find 3 problems in your post. 1.) " by pulling out the inside black plastic piece " this is the cable housing, the steel cable must be pulled to increase pressure. 2.) Pressures are low for a performance trans. 3.)"4 bolts out that appear to expose this entire valve, " I beleive those would be for the govenor.
TV cable adj.: Push tab in, slide cable housing all the way in toward firewall (reset), release tab, open throttle linkage to WOT, housing should pull out to max tv and from there you can move it out if needed put I doubt you will need to with your pressures. From what you say about the tv valve "Throttle valve. The piston sticking out could be depressed with fairly light pressure, until it got close to all the way in, then hard pressure. It would then return all the way out to its own stop." that's the way it should work. As for a "shift kit" if you want some performance then yes it will help it is basically springs for the vb and enlarged holes in the plate to improve shift quality. Here are a few things you might be inerested in getting.

http://www.2004rperformancecenter.com/mcartfree/product.asp?intProdID=23
http://www.2004rperformancecenter.com/mcartfree/product.asp?intProdID=84
http://www.2004rperformancecenter.com/mcartfree/product.asp?intProdID=88
If not the servo at least the pr system for better pressure and vb kit for shift quality.

 

[SSDuane]

Thanks for your reply. Please bear with me, as I obviously have no expertise in the auto trans. department. First, this is not a "Performance" tranny; I've been told from its numbers here on this site that it's out of an '86 Delta 88. I understand how you're saying to adjust the cable, but it's not the specific instructions with this adaptive kit I purchased. With this kit was a special metal sandwich piece to go where the overdrive linkage normally goes, for a Carter AFB. A special bolt goes in a slot to attach the TV cable to & this bolt can slide in this slot to change the aggressiveness of the downshifts (of course, with proper adjustment in the housing position). The TV cable provided is much longer than needed, but they say it must be used.

Now, as I understand it, moving the cable housing back toward the firewall is equivalent to pulling the cable out, both of which would be depressing the cylinder (part throttle/detent valve?) which moves a dual hydraulic control valve assembly, including the Throttle Valve. It seems that their instructions are setting where the process starts at idle position, to make sure the pressure starts to increase with the slightest movement of the throttle, with the assumption that their engineering will insure that maximum extension of the cable matches WOT. It also requires the engine running, but only at idle, no acceleration. On the other hand, you're method, which I have heard before, insures that the furthest extension of the cable matches the WOT, period, set while the engine is not running. Then, just adjust based on driveability & shifting. I'm not so sure that the result would be any different between the two methods, because I preset it based on trying to set the housing where I thought it was just striking the piston based on feel. Then I checked for WOT & it was pretty much there. But, then I started the engine & moving the housing did not change the pressure & apparently it should have changed it, right????
So, again, my question is: no pressure change means problems in the throttle valve assembly???? I am guessing the four bolts I was referring to holds the metal housing that contains all this assembly, wherein my problem lies??? Or, do I have a problem??
SSDuane

 

[HOTTOGO]

Originally posted by SSDuane
But, then I started the engine & moving the housing did not change the pressure & apparently it should have changed it, right????
So, again, my question is: no pressure change means problems in the throttle valve assembly???? I am guessing the four bolts I was referring to holds the metal housing that contains all this assembly, wherein my problem lies??? Or, do I have a problem??
SSDuane

Did you by chance make sure when you had the pan off that if you manually pulled the tv cable that it would bottom out the tv valve in it's bore? If so then one way to verify the tv valve is working, which is also how you would take pressure reading for max tv, is to manually pull the steel inner cable out as far as it will pull. You should see a pressure rise then providing the cable is bottoming out the valve. If that works then I would say it is a problem with cable or adjustment. As for the 4 bolts, not sure of which 4 you are refering to, if they are the 4 that hold an oblonged w/round end aluiminum cover that would be the gov, also what gears did you say you replaced.

 

[SSDuane]

I don't recall specifically pulling the wire sticking out of the tran. casing for the tv cable to the fullest extent (cable wasn't attached). As the metal plunger got very close to the casing, it quickly became very difficult to push 'til it was flush. I'm wondering if something inside is stuck, which would reflect the "no change in pressure" status. The gears I replaced were the speedometer gears. Pretty straight forward. I do remember a round steel cylinder near the throttle valve assembly & wondering if that was the filter, but I don't recall if it was part of the metal casing covering all the throttle assembly.

But, I take it you agree that when accelerating off idle, the pressure should be rising??
Thanks for your help!!
SSDuane

 

[HOTTOGO]

My money is on it being the cable...

Yes the pressure should rise w/throttle. This is the purpose for the Throttle valve. What controls the valve is the cable and unless you know that is working first forget about valve sticking and make sure cable is working properly, then go from there. Try pressure check while pulling cable and see what happens. The valve/plunger is physically working as it should so I dobt it is stuck. If you changed gears in the pan then you had the gov out, the cylinder by tv valve is the tcc selonoid. The tv valve has two valves and springs, see link for diagram. Plunger 305 sticks out of sleeve 306 that is what you are pushing in, it pushes tv valve 302 compressing spring 346 very weak spring when tv vavle bottoms you are compressing heavy plunger spring thus the feeling you get. http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/images/valvebody.gif

 

[SSDuane]

I did another check on the pressure. This time there was slight new twist. When I first started the engine, then immediately tried manually to pull the TV cable, the pressure was running about 50-60 & pulling the cable did show a rise in the pressure. However, this only lasted about 30-60 seconds, then the pressure went up to 92 and returned to the before mentioned characteristics, which included no pressure change when pulling the cable. Does this suggest anything in particular?? Is it safe to say this transmission would probably not downshift upon acceleration, if driven. Or is it all too complicated to predict. But, I'm assuming I can't let it be like it is. Right????
Duane

 

[HOTTOGO]

Let me make sure I understand correctly. You had 50-60 psi at idle, then pulled cable and got 92 psi for a few seconds the it dropped back to 50-60 and would not rise again with cable pulled?

 

[SSDuane]

No, when I first started the engine, the pressure was 50-60 for the first 30-60 seconds, during which time, it would increase when I pulled the cable. But after that 30-60 second period, it then went up to 92 psi, on its own, and then I couldn't get it to change by pulling the cable. It was like the transmission hadn't had a chance to build up full pressure yet. But, it's the only time I've seen it change its pressure by moving the cable. Hey, that's progress!!!!
Duane

 

[HOTTOGO]

Okay... now we got some were.

What is happening is 50-60 is the normal pressure, the 92 is max tv, so you were correct in thinking the valve was sticking and it maybe sticking but it may not be physically. It is either worn (tv valve) and is getting hyd. locked to max position or you still have the exhaust check ball in the vb and the little rod on the lever linkage is missing, the one in the pan that actually pushes the pluger in, it should have a little rod that pushes the check ball off it's seat. I would still recommend the pr system and vb kit from PTS I mentioned above. The only way your gonna know if the prob is the rod and checkball is to drop the pan and vb and also there is a hole in the seperator plate that can be drilled to stop hyd locking, Bruce at PTS if you contact him and purchase the parts can instruct you further.

 

[SSDuane]

Thanks again for all your help and sticking with my less than perfect descriptions. I think my next step is contacting the people who rebuilt it & see what they've got to say. Now I've got some real terms to throw around. I may have to become a tranny rebuilder!!!!!! God help us!!!!

Thanks again!
Duane

 

[Clay Thompson]

Impala +2004R

One thing you need to know is that the TV cable connector needs to be 1.06 inches from the centerline of the throttle shaft and must travel 78 degrees. Travel should start 34 degrees toward the back and the TV cable should be piano-wire tight at WOT for starters. More than 1.06 inches is OK less is not OK.

If you don't have it try shiftworks http://www.shiftworks.com/ for the right hardware for your shifter.

Sounds like you'll need toi go back to your trannie rebuilder for your pressure problems but search this board for the best source of 200 4R tech tips anywhere.

 

[HOTTOGO]

Originally posted by SSDuane
Thanks again for all your help and sticking with my less than perfect descriptions. I think my next step is contacting the people who rebuilt it & see what they've got to say. Now I've got some real terms to throw around. I may have to become a tranny rebuilder!!!!!! God help us!!!!

Thanks again!
Duane

Sounds like the best plan to start with, here are some terms you might want to remember, Max TV press @ idle, worn tv valve, hyd. lock, tv balance hole in seperator plate, tv exhaust checkball & lifter rod. These are things that GM tech. ser. bulliten (TSB) & ATSG manuals say to do to every 2004r.

 

[77 cruiser]

Here`s some pics of the geometry Clay was talking about it`s for a 700 but still the same function.
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/techinfo/700R4p1.html


Jim

 

[SSDuane]

The geometry should be correct on mine, since I am using the complete setup for my specific carburetor & the tv cable, all designed to work together. And it appears to do so. I checked te tv cable that came on the transmission & it did not have near the amount of cable pull needed, compared to the new one. Another factor that may be applicable is the fact that I have not attached the wiring harness. Will this alter the readings?? Remember, I have no body, brake pedal, etc. that would be activating the lockup release (when brake pedal is depressed). I did talk to the rebuilder of this tranny & he said they have experienced situations where the pressure readings did not conform to the way the tv cable setup indicates (system is Bowtie Overdrives, by the way), but it was all fine. In fact, I'm getting the feeling many transmission guys don't use the pressure readings at all. He said to check it out when it's driveable and adjust as needed. Fortunately, he'll back it up, Unfortunately, he's not in my state!! Thanks again for all this information & I'll check out the graphics provided by 77 Cruiser.
Duane

 

[HOTTOGO]

Originally posted by SSDuane
Another factor that may be applicable is the fact that I have not attached the wiring harness. Will this alter the readings?? .... I did talk to the rebuilder of this tranny & he said they have experienced situations where the pressure readings did not conform to the way the tv cable setup indicates, but it was all fine. In fact, I'm getting the feeling many transmission guys don't use the pressure readings at all. He said to check it out when it's driveable and adjust as needed. Duane

TCC (harness) won't have an effect on reading. Two things about what the builder says, pressure not conforming to tv cable setting is a "problem" and if you do have it stuck at max tv when you do drive it adjusting it will still have no effect.