301 TTA Turbo

[LemansWagon]

OK, this post goes along the lines of Charlief1's on the TTA turbo. While inventorying some turbos I got from a friend I found one of them was a good working (very little shaft play) 301 TTA turbo. I thought it was a carbed 3.8 turbo at first until I measured the intake diameter. Anyway, since my wagon will be a hybrid of many years parts I was thinking I could do something similar to Charlief1 (except I am not concerned with looking original) and use the compressor from the TTA turbo and the turbine from an 84-85. I have 86-87 headers so I would mount it in the 86-87 location and make an adapter for the inlet & outlet to attach piping to and run it blow through.

Any thoughts?

 

[WarWagon]

DR Frankenstein (A.j) has already built and is selling these exact modified turbochargers that you are describing.
Of course he is unavailable at this time but will return soon.....
It can all be done BUT your trying to run a carbon seal turbo on a blowthru now, It's not needed for that application but will work if your just using up as many parts as you currently have to keep costs down. Since you want to run '86-'87 headers, you can run ANY 3 bolt turbo that is actually made for them. That's one of the reasons I did it like that on my blowthru, that gives me all the same turbo upgrades as the SFI cars can pick from (3bolt).

 

[LemansWagon]

Since you want to run '86-'87 headers, you can run ANY 3 bolt turbo that is actually made for them. That's one of the reasons I did it like that on my blowthru, that gives me all the same turbo upgrades as the SFI cars can pick from (3bolt).

My thoughts exactly, but right now I am trying to do this with what I have. I have two other projects eating funds. This is my budget project. A $9.99 ebay 84 N/A 3.8 is the starting point. I will probably start with just one of the 84-85 turbos I have and see how it goes with an eye on upgrading the compressor to the TTA unit in the future. See just how much this $9.99 N/A engine can take. Only question is do I spend the money to put a replacement GN cam in it along with some practically brand new GN springs or just stick with the 84 N/A cam for now.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

units are available.

but for what you are doing........ suggesting BLOW THRU.... would only require a regular 86/87 GN turbo.

no 301 housing needed. the purpose of the 301 unit of for a DRAW THRU upgrade. and you cannot just plug and pull parts to assemble the hybrid. you must balance and upgrade the thrust.


dont molest the 301 unit put it back together as you took it apart. and I will trade you an excellent core 86/87 this way... all you need is a bearing and seal kit and you in buisness. and.... it already has a regular barbed compressor outlet. no retarded 90* foot.

A.j.

 

[LemansWagon]

Well, I wasn't going to destroy the 301 unit. I was just going to make flanges with stubs to connect tubes to and swap the turbine. But as you said that stupid 90 degree foot would make things goofy. Trading for your 86-87 is a definite possibility. Only thing is I honestly feel this 301 unit is in such good condition that it can just be bolted on. Almost no shaft play at all.

Then I also had the idea of possibly using the carb adapter and making it draw through using one of the millions of q-jets I have. Only thing is I'd have to figure some stuff out since with the 86-87 headers the carb would be sitting right where the distributor is. But if I run an electric fan then I have plenty of room to either move the turbo forward a bit or put a 90 degree adapter on the turbo inlet.

86-87 would certainly be the easiest though.

Too many options! Blow thru Holley, blow thru q-jet, blow thru TBI, draw thru q-jet, 84-85 turbo, 301 turbo, 86-87 turbo.....my head is going to explode!

 

[dr_frankenstein]

well lets look at this simply.

draw thru 301 housing hybrid / 84-85 turbo

will require alot of fab for up and down pipe with 86/87 headers, thats what I use. the biggest thing to over come is the intake, as the stocker sucks. 2nd, is the building of a hybrid turbo. cheaply put... it will cost you 250 minimum to get it assembled. using the stock 301 turbine on a v6 will induce mind blowing lag.... think 100 shot or more of N2O to get her rolling and dont get me started on the flow issues caused by the 90* foot.... keep your boost under 16 or it shows how poor a 90* turn flows. Think wisely in this path. the 84-85 is the easiest, but the gains are meeger due to .42 compressor and puny wheel.

Blow Thru holley / Q-jet / TBI

Easiest way to go.... simply use 86-87 ascessory drive system, 86-87 headers and 86-87 turbo. all fits perfectly. no major fab work required at all, allows use of intercooler for MUCH MORE BOOST and power. Go with the holley style square bore carb and its easy as pie. Q-jet.... well...... good luck.... and as for TBI.... there isnt any ability for stock GM TBI to measure boost, as well as compensate for the fuel. most Forced TBI units I have seen had added crutch injectors to cover for the lack of proper fuel

hope this aids you desicion making. I only reccomend the draw thru if your really up for the challange.... theres not a whole lot of easy power to be made here.

A.j.

 

[LemansWagon]

How come the hybrid 301 turbo is so expensive to get assembled? Since the bearings seemed good I figured new seals and a balance for the new turbine. And which center section is better to use for it? The one from the 301 or the 84-85?

 

[dr_frankenstein]

How come the hybrid 301 turbo is so expensive to get assembled? Since the bearings seemed good I figured new seals and a balance for the new turbine. And which center section is better to use for it? The one from the 301 or the 84-85?

because balancing is 150 right off the get go... add the shipping to and fro.... then add the cost of the 360* thrust bearing and the labor to mod the backplate for it, so 55 for the thrust and another 55-60 for labor... hmm.... it adds up.

since the turbo is coming part i would change bearings and seals while there.... just because a turbo looks and feels good... does not mean it is. or atleast inspect them very very well. 9 time out of 10 though, you will need to press the turbine out of the housing which will scuff and damage the bearings.

as for center section.... either 84-85 or 301 unit is fine.... there both identical T3s. I would look for the one with the least abuse or just order a new unit.

A.j.

 

[LemansWagon]

well lets look at this simply.

draw thru 301 housing hybrid / 84-85 turbo

will require alot of fab for up and down pipe with 86/87 headers, thats what I use. the biggest thing to over come is the intake, as the stocker sucks. 2nd, is the building of a hybrid turbo. cheaply put... it will cost you 250 minimum to get it assembled. using the stock 301 turbine on a v6 will induce mind blowing lag.... think 100 shot or more of N2O to get her rolling and dont get me started on the flow issues caused by the 90* foot.... keep your boost under 16 or it shows how poor a 90* turn flows. Think wisely in this path. the 84-85 is the easiest, but the gains are meeger due to .42 compressor and puny wheel.

Blow Thru holley / Q-jet / TBI

Easiest way to go.... simply use 86-87 ascessory drive system, 86-87 headers and 86-87 turbo. all fits perfectly. no major fab work required at all, allows use of intercooler for MUCH MORE BOOST and power. Go with the holley style square bore carb and its easy as pie. Q-jet.... well...... good luck.... and as for TBI.... there isnt any ability for stock GM TBI to measure boost, as well as compensate for the fuel. most Forced TBI units I have seen had added crutch injectors to cover for the lack of proper fuel

hope this aids you desicion making. I only reccomend the draw thru if your really up for the challange.... theres not a whole lot of easy power to be made here.

A.j.

Hmmmm...where to start....I have a lot of experience working on cars and hot rods but not with turbos. That's why I'm here. To take advantage of you guys who have done it and can prevent me from making some of the same mistakes.

The 84-85 compressor is not that small. It's .60 A/R same as the 85-86 t-birds. Still a bit small for a 3.8 but still should be good for up to 300 bhp. I also doubt I would exceed 16 psi on this engine. It's a used 84 n/a. So I'd have to build an engine up if I wanted to go nuts on the boost.

301 hybrid draw thru:

Fab work for me is not an issue. I have a welder and I can use it. If I went draw thru I was going to use the 4 bbl holley intake that I have and make an adapter to connect the piping to. So the stock draw thru intake won't hold me back. I was even thinking of using a tbi to 4bbl intake adapter I have with a gutted tbi throttle body (no throttle blades, regulator, shaft holes plugged etc. and it's on the shelf) and a carb hat. That way if I decided draw thru was not working I could switch to blow through with out much in the way of changes. Just replace the adapter & tbi t/b with a carb.

Blow thru holley/q-jet/TBI:

I have tons of q-jets, I don't have any holleys, and for the TBI I have the hard parts & ecu. I just need a harness so that definitely adds expense to the tbi route. As far as tuning the tbi I already have the software & hardware to do it. I figured swap in a 2 bar map sensor and repopulate the map accordingly. And from what I have read, since the fuel pressure regulator is on top of the tbi unit and will be under the hat it can be made to easily boost reference the fuel pressure.

So what makes a draw through so hard? I love a challenge and I am really good at tuning q-jets. Is there any limit to the amount of hp you can make compared to a blo thru? Can the drivability be made to match if, like you said, I am willing to put in the tuning time?

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Hmmmm...where to start....I have a lot of experience working on cars and hot rods but not with turbos. That's why I'm here. To take advantage of you guys who have done it and can prevent me from making some of the same mistakes.

The 84-85 compressor is not that small. It's .60 A/R same as the 85-86 t-birds. Still a bit small for a 3.8 but still should be good for up to 300 bhp. I also doubt I would exceed 16 psi on this engine. It's a used 84 n/a. So I'd have to build an engine up if I wanted to go nuts on the boost.

301 hybrid draw thru:

Fab work for me is not an issue. I have a welder and I can use it. If I went draw thru I was going to use the 4 bbl holley intake that I have and make an adapter to connect the piping to. So the stock draw thru intake won't hold me back. I was even thinking of using a tbi to 4bbl intake adapter I have with a gutted tbi throttle body (no throttle blades, regulator, shaft holes plugged etc. and it's on the shelf) and a carb hat. That way if I decided draw thru was not working I could switch to blow through with out much in the way of changes. Just replace the adapter & tbi t/b with a carb.

Blow thru holley/q-jet/TBI:

I have tons of q-jets, I don't have any holleys, and for the TBI I have the hard parts & ecu. I just need a harness so that definitely adds expense to the tbi route. As far as tuning the tbi I already have the software & hardware to do it. I figured swap in a 2 bar map sensor and repopulate the map accordingly. And from what I have read, since the fuel pressure regulator is on top of the tbi unit and will be under the hat it can be made to easily boost reference the fuel pressure.

So what makes a draw through so hard? I love a challenge and I am really good at tuning q-jets. Is there any limit to the amount of hp you can make compared to a blo thru? Can the drivability be made to match if, like you said, I am willing to put in the tuning time?

the HA compressor is definitly .42. same size as stock carbed turbo. housings almost interchange you must already have an 86/87 housing if its 60.

I dont see the point of making such adapters to run a turbo out front on 86/87 headers and plumb all the way back... remember draw thru is a wet flow charge, the more it moves the more likely fuel drop out will be. when it comes to draw thru, you need to think more like a blower and there traits... they like short open runners.

I had a stock TBI regulator that would not be able to effectively control the 12 PSI + boost. or atleast it never worked for me... i had to elimnate stock regulator and add an external with 1:1.42 raise rate for proper fueling even with BBC injectors. as for the mapping of the ECU.... with only a 15% learning capability, Id rather go for the control of multipoint. not saying that it cant be done.... but after the work its like..... whats the point?

As for what makes draw thru so hard? well lack of aftermarket support, and the major one, No Intercooling. Also turbo design is not really current for draw thru systems... very very few carbon seals available at this time. right now, im the only one who offers T4 sized carbon seal backing plates around here. The Carbon seal being the most important part of Draw Thru.

A.j.

 

[LemansWagon]

the HA compressor is definitly .42. same size as stock carbed turbo. housings almost interchange you must already have an 86/87 housing if its 60. A.j.

Definitely .60 A/R and definitely 84-85. In fact one is from a Riv. Even came with the funky Riv exhaust elbow on it. And it's not a fluke because I have picked up 3 of them over the years and they're all the same. The centers, including the wheels, are identical to my 85-86 t-bird turbos. The compressor & turbine housings are completely interchangable between the fords & 84-85 buicks. Obviously the outlets have different attachment means but they will bolt to the center.

Do you have measurements on the 86-87 compressor wheel?

You're definitely making me rethink both the TBI & draw thru. I did not realize you could not use a standard turbo as a draw thru. And from what you have described about your trials & tribulations with TBI it sounds like it'd be cheaper to buy a used holley and rebuild it for blow thru. So I may be taking you up on your 301 turbo swap offer...unless it seems that I may be ok with the 84-85 turbos? At least to start with probably, then I can upgrade later to the 86-87.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Agh! the one catch...... yea the HA riv turbo is completly different from the regular HA car turbo... which is .42........ all 84/85 GN -T-types were of the .42 variety

Riv turbos are oddball and of no desire to most of us because there fairly hard to find. now theres something you have worth while.... sell the riv turbos

The turbines and compressor wheels are of different size then the others, thus there is no data on using them or for flow. as well as the fact that replacement parts are costly and rare.

theres the wrench in the gears on why the data seemed all wrong...

I dont have the measurments off hand, but I can measure a wheel when I get home tonight

A.j.

 

[LemansWagon]

Here is a chart with a listing of some of the different turbos I have and their specs. You may find it interesting to note that the compressor wheels on the early carb turbos are actually the same size as the 84-85 buicks & 85-86 fords. It's just that some of the early ones had small housings and of course monster turbines.

And actually the Riv turbos have TONS of data and parts because from what I see they are identical to the ford turbos. So the standard 60 trim T3 (not super 60) compressor map should apply. Plus they are better than the fords because all have .63 A/R turbine housings and 86-87 GN turbine flanges. .63 A/R t-bird turbos are hard to find and get snatched up quickly because they only came on 5 speeds. The autos were .48 A/R. All you need is a GN exhaust elbow/wastegate and they bolt right on. Sounds like they may be a great upgrade for an HA car.

 

[LemansWagon]

So does this mean an 84-85 Riv turbo is essentially the same as an 86-87 GN?

 

[dr_frankenstein]

that chart cannot be entirely right.

79-83 and 84/85 is a 55 trim wheel.... not a 60 as chart says. same with AR on compressor housing unless it is a riv turbo. other mistake is turbine housing AR on carbed turbos... there was two... early .82 and late .63.

funny thing is... garrett was cheap when it came to there 55 trim wheel.... they used it in all sorts of junk... nissans, fords toyotas, diesels... very common wheel. I have so many that they make great christmas tree ordaments.


this is why i say we have been swapping housings on the HA motors to use on the carbed ones. its decent turbine upgrade, but like I said... results are meeger at best.


where did this chart come from? id like to see who is pushing this data out....

A.j.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

So does this mean an 84-85 Riv turbo is essentially the same as an 86-87 GN?

yes and no.... it was designed specificly for the riv.... which is why its not interchangable with others without housing machine work.

please show me riv data.... im dying to see it.

as for 86/87 wheel...

here are measurements

Ind 1.9487700045
EXd 2.75583637

A.j.

 

[LemansWagon]

that chart cannot be entirely right.

79-83 and 84/85 is a 55 trim wheel.... not a 60 as chart says. same with AR on compressor housing unless it is a riv turbo. other mistake is turbine housing AR on carbed turbos... there was two... early .82 and late .63.

funny thing is... garrett was cheap when it came to there 55 trim wheel.... they used it in all sorts of junk... nissans, fords toyotas, diesels... very common wheel. I have so many that they make great christmas tree ordaments.


this is why i say we have been swapping housings on the HA motors to use on the carbed ones. its decent turbine upgrade, but like I said... results are meeger at best.


where did this chart come from? id like to see who is pushing this data out....

A.j.

The chart is of my own making. It's cut and pasted from a spread sheet I made to try to inventory the mess of turbos I have. I had some turbos already then a friend recently gave me a whole bunch more making about 16 total mixed between early buicks & ford 2.3's with 2 diesel t4's for good measure. Some of the applications may be wrong but I know 2 are definitely from rivs because of the exhaust elbows. And the exact year and application of the one listed as 79-83 is unknown. I just know it's a carb turbo. The ones listed as 84-85 GN I purchased off ebay as for that app and they are definitely not riv turbos, have the GN style exhaust elbow, and the compressors/turbine are both marked as .60/.63 respectively.

All wheel measurements on the chart were made by me with digital calipers and trims are calculated in the sheet from those. A/R's that are listed are from the housings if marked.

 

[LemansWagon]

yes and no.... it was designed specificly for the riv.... which is why its not interchangable with others without housing machine work.

please show me riv data.... im dying to see it.

as for 86/87 wheel...

here are measurements

Ind 1.9487700045
EXd 2.75583637

A.j.

On this info I checked my riv turbine and sure enough the bolt pattern does not mate to the standard buick elbow. They are close enough that unless you put the elbow on it you won't be able to tell. All the time I've had the riv turbo I never checked LOL. One thing I can tell you is that the riv turbo is definitely .60 A/R compressor & .63 A/R turbine and the wheels exactly match the t-bird turbos. Which to me means you can use the same compressor maps for the t-bird turbos which as I understand is a standard non "super 60" T3.

And wow, I did not realize the 86-87 wheel was that much bigger.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

its the craziest thing isnt it...

i went through this exact nonsense not too long ago... what a pain.

hey if you wanna chat more about this gimme a call.

A.j.