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36# or 50's (i know, its a hot topic)

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turbo buicks

ESADAH!!!
Joined
Jun 13, 2002
Messages
2,936
i put my car on friends DS today. no codes but rich as heck. 150-160 BLM's and computer displaying rich. with half the car sitting outside the garage it would make my eyes water and hurt! we tried all kids of custom chips my friend burnt and adjusted the TPS and IAC and the MAF is OK. we just couldnt lean it out. we finally got an OK idle w/his DS ECM but when we put the same chip in my car's old ECM it was terrible so i need a new ECM and injectors b/c he thinks my injector(s) are leaking. i plan to upgrade my turbo in the future but for now i have the stock turbo. i dont want to have to buy injectors twice. should i get 50's or 36# bluetops? my goals are mid to upper 11's. would the bluetops be ok? if i put on 50s now w/my current setup would i run rich like i did on the DS today or can you set them to run correctly w/a stock turbo and engine w/a few boltons? i really want 50's b/c as i said i dont want to have to buy injectors twice but if the 36#'s would be alright for my goals i can save some money by geting them.
 
50's will be fine, but get a decent chip...meaning a MaxEffort

(or maybe Bruce will burn one for you)
 
my friend has the software to custom burn chips (he burned a couple today) will this be ok?
 
Originally posted by turbo buicks
i put my car on friends DS today. no codes but rich as heck. 150-160 BLM's and computer displaying rich. we finally got an OK idle w/his DS ECM but when we put the same chip in my car's old ECM it was terrible so i need a new ECM and injectors b/c he thinks my injector(s) are leaking. i plan to upgrade my turbo in the future but for now i have the stock turbo. i dont want to have to buy injectors twice. should i get 50's or 36# bluetops? my goals are mid to upper 11's

I'd suggest finding out what's really wrong with what you have first. ie try a set of used injectors, if you're sure that is a problem.
pulling some plugs should verify an injector or 3 is bad.

You first have to have a baseline before you do anything. Changing injectors because you might have a problem is starting off on the wrong foot.

get the car running right, and get your friend and yourself educated on what you're doing with a stock engine engine before you get too far over your heads.

There is all kinds of neat stuff you can do,
get a copy of the prom contents from the GNTtype site, and find a hex editor in addition to the editor you have.

Remember, you want to run the least amount of timing consistent with best HP. Unlike a normally aspirated engine you can make good HP with just 16d of WOT timing.

When in doubt start a lil rich and in small steps lean things out.

When your done reading the prom contents reread it a couple hundred more times.

then move on to the larger injectors.

Once your doing you own chips, and clear on what your doing, injector sizing is a none issue for drivibility. Oh, and take good notes, it says backtracking.
 
i do remember that i took my car to a mechanic once and he pulled a plug and the engine idled very smoothly and he said that and injector was bad. my friend w/the DS knows what hes doing. in fact he has posted on this board for a while. i trust his knowledge w/these car b/c he has been around them for quite a while. thanks for the suggestions:D
 
i put my car on friends DS today. no codes but rich as heck. 150-160 BLM's

Ummm, isnt 150-160 BLM Too LEAN :eek:

Over 128 blm comp adding fuel (lean condition)
Under 128 blm comp taking fuel out (rich condition)
 
Originally posted by turbo buicks
i put my car on friends DS today. no codes but rich as heck. 150-160 BLM's and computer displaying rich. with half the car sitting outside the garage it would make my eyes water and hurt! we tried all kids of custom chips my friend burnt and adjusted the TPS and IAC and the MAF is OK. we just couldnt lean it out. we finally got an OK idle w/his DS ECM but when we put the same chip in my car's old ECM it was terrible so i need a new ECM and injectors b/c he thinks my injector(s) are leaking. i plan to upgrade my turbo in the future but for now i have the stock turbo. i dont want to have to buy injectors twice. should i get 50's or 36# bluetops? my goals are mid to upper 11's. would the bluetops be ok? if i put on 50s now w/my current setup would i run rich like i did on the DS today or can you set them to run correctly w/a stock turbo and engine w/a few boltons? i really want 50's b/c as i said i dont want to have to buy injectors twice but if the 36#'s would be alright for my goals i can save some money by geting them.


Hmm, maybe a couple of things to think about, one of which I still can't explain (more on that later).

BUT, as for the high BLM's, the first think I always start looking for is a vacuum leak, exhaust leak or something like that, that allows post MAF unmetered air into the system. A tiny crack or rotting vacuum hose can wreak havoc on the BLM's.

Also, dont just stick a chip into a car and fire it up and let it idle to operating temeratures and look at BLM's (here's the part I haven't figured out yet). When putting in a new chip, if the car is running OK, I ALWAYS take it out for a drive around on the surface streets, and get all the cells learned in. For some reason, EVERY time I start the car and let it idle the idle cells go way high :confused:
Take it out on the streets and they all go to where I expected them to. Make sure and sit at some red lights for a while to allow your idle cells to learn.

As for the injectors, if you're truelly shooting for mid/high 11's and want to do it safely, forget the Blue Tops. I did things the stupip way. I started with stock injectors, upgraded to Red Tops, upgraded to Blue Tops, Upgraded to Red Stripes, and finally ended up with the MSD50's.

What an expensive (but valuable) lesson that was. Being one of the original DS owners for years now, I've been able to see how the injectors behave out on the track, in my ongoing efforts for mid 11's. I am also one of those that has been doing my own chips for quite a few years, so I hated doing things the wrong way (the old method of going beyond an injector's capabilities by crambing more fuel pressure at it). I much prefer doing things safely, and using technology to it's best (probably why I've only had to do two headgasket changes in the last 15 years)(One of which I managed to blow in a parking lot trying to show off) :mad:

Oh there'll be plenty of folks swearing that mid 11's are easy with Blue Tops. Well, it can be done, but neither reliably nor safely. You'll be running tons of boost, and a LOT more fuel pressure than what is normal.

IMHO if you have to run more than 45# of fuel pressure for any reason(racing or otherwise), something is wrong, operating far outside design parameters and needs attention

With the proper chip, MSD50's are a perfectly mannered street chip, and you can even get through VERY tough smog inspections with them(been there, done that).
 
i really dont understand the whole BLM and all that technical stuff just yet but i know that you could smell the fuel. my friend thinks i could have a leaky injector. if this was the case it would explain the pops through the intake i get and possibly the richness b/c wouldnt unaccounted for fuel be entering the combustion chamber?
 
A vacuum/header leak adds air into the system that's unacounted for, The O2 sensor thinks the car is running lean (it isn't), and cranks up the BLM to compensate, adding a lot more fuel (what's burning your eyes).

It's an artificial condition. High BLM's as I've stated are only caused by a few things.
Vacuum Leak.
Header leak.
Bad chip programming.
 
oil leaks on my crossover pipe but not a lot at all. when i look under the car when its running i can see smoke puffing out of the dent in the pipe. could this be the source of the leak? i had my cracked DS header welded and its still fine. what are some other ways i can check for header leaks? also my MAP hose and the hose going to the MAP off the solid vac block line are kind of cracked. they look weatherbeaten w/a bunch of little tiny cracks. but nothing happens when i hold them in attempt to seal up the leaks. i have checked all the other vac. lines. where can i get new check valves? i could blow a tiny bit of air through mine if i blew really really hard.
 
Re: Re: 36# or 50's (i know, its a hot topic)

Originally posted by TurboDave


As for the injectors, if you're truelly shooting for mid/high 11's and want to do it safely, forget the Blue Tops. I did things the stupip way. I started with stock injectors, upgraded to Red Tops, upgraded to Blue Tops, Upgraded to Red Stripes, and finally ended up with the MSD50's.


Oh there'll be plenty of folks swearing that mid 11's are easy with Blue Tops. Well, it can be done, but neither reliably nor safely. You'll be running tons of boost, and a LOT more fuel pressure than what is normal.

IMHO if you have to run more than 45# of fuel pressure for any reason(racing or otherwise), something is wrong, operating far outside design parameters and needs attention

With the proper chip, MSD50's are a perfectly mannered street chip, and you can even get through VERY tough smog inspections with them(been there, done that).

Ahh a posting with actual logic involved, how refreshing.

BTW, Carl Ijames breezed thru a Smog Check with 72s.
So things aren't as impossible as some suggest.
 
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