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fc227

1986 Grand National
Joined
May 28, 2001
Messages
1,565
Well, I final got around to taking the tranny out of the GN today. To install the used Orange stripe converter and stage right Trans- brake I bought. But When I had the pull down tranny and pull the converter off. The outer shaft had ¾ of each spine on it was missing/sheared off. What is that outer shaft? Pump? Input? , The converter looked ok. The Transmission is sitting on my parents garage floor. And the car is just a roller now. I do have the built up TH350 out of the OLDS, but that had some black junk in the bottom of it the last time I changed the fulid in it.

O well, I guess its time to look for a new tranny.
 
You need a new, hardened Stator Support. That's what the outer shaft is on the pump. The pump has the be removed to do this, and their is a right way to do this, no sledge hammering the support off of the pump!

A list of 200-4R enlightened shops from this board:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84598

Joe Burkhardt is one close to you. You may have other wear/about to fail issues, so it should be overhauled. If you want to use a trans brake, it would be wise to get a performance rebuild, including all the good stuff.

How much crud in the 350 pan? A lot of it means it's dying.
 
"How much crud in the 350 pan? A lot of it means it's dying."

There was about 1/16" black sludge.

I agree , I should do it right .
 
I ordered a video & Manual. I'm going to order the parts kit. And I will order the stator shaft.

I'm going to take a shot at rebuilding it my self. I don't need it until spring, So this will be my winter project. I will take my time. And do it right. I also work with Machinist’s @ Moroso. So If I need some critical work done. I know where to turn.

And if it gets to bad, I bring to my tranny guy in a box. (He may or may not be happy about it, but I did disassemble it ).
 
I haven't seen any of the available videos, but I know for sure, the only manual that is worth the money is the one that Chris at CK made. It is much better than that ATSG manual, and you don't need a video to be able to rebuild the trans. He has step by step pictures and explanations for every step, as well as performance modifications.

I used it to rebuild mine, and the trans is awesome.
 
Haynes has the worst manual I've seen yet for the 200-4R, some details missing. Have yet to see the ATSG or CK one. The GM one is pretty good, but forget about GM broadcasting updates outside TSB's. Mitchell is not as good as GM. What little I saw of the ATRA one is great, but you have to be an ATRA member, not cheap.
 
Well, I started getting it apart this morning. And it does not look bad at all in there. The pan is clean (very little dirt) and from what I can see the band looks good (the side I can see without it removed , it does look burnt) and the clutch packs at the back look good , oil soaked but they still have some color to them.

I pulled the pull; the plastic spacer looks good & still flexible.

Right now I'm tempted to just replace the stator support... install a shift kit and the stage right brake on the orange strip that is used.

Can the stator support be press out and back in with the pump together? I really don't want to take that apart if I do not have to.
 
If the band looks burned at all, replace it! You don't need to be chasing down a 1-2 slip/slide/soft shift when you're done. Go for the Alto wide red band. You will also need to refinish the Direct drum where the band rides with some emery, then clean the drum real good. Soak the new band in trans fluid for 15 minutes before installing it.

The seals on the clutch packs are also a concern, since they get harder as time goes on. Your choice here.

New, hard pump rings are a must for the 200-4R (and 700-R4), since they can break any time. You'll be cursing yourself if you leave the stock ones in & they break! And they won't break the bank to buy them.

Drilling out the front pump seal drainback passages will keep you from having that seal leak problem. About half the 200-4Rs I see at wrecking & core salvage places have leaks at the front seal. It may be fine now, but just a little more pump bushing wear will start it flowing.
 
Sorry, that was a typo on my part. It should read "It does NOT look burnt".

I really don't what to open the pump case if I don't have too. The rest of the tranny looks good.

I have seen a 10 vane pump for sale for $109.00. I was debating that? But the converter I have is used, but in good condition. I was figuring to replace the stator shaft and see how I like the tranny. And save my money for now. It get a complete rebuild done the road with all new parts and I will have a feed back to my self. If I want to go up or down in converter stall.
 
open the pump and do the mods now.if you dont have the time now,how will you have the time later when the seal or bushing blows out,or the pump rings break?fear limits our abilities and stops us from attaining goals.get to it. :D
 
Chris is right on; Do you think your next transmission problem will happen when you have time to work on it? Fix these problems NOW.

Where do you think those shavings from the pump stator went? Most likely their still in the torque converter. Something else to think about.

If the pump rings break it's likely you'll trash the pump, plus send metal flakes from that failure all over the trans, requiring a full overhaul.

Chris K. wrote:

fear limits our abilities and stops us from attaining goals.

Gee, that sounds like a Gil Younger type quote, for those who have been around the transmission repair industry. :cool:
 
i can attest to the validity of that statement from personal experience.fear and uncertainty temporarily derailed things i needed to get done.after understanding the meaning of that statement i took control of the fear vehicle instead of the fear vehicle taking control of me.this proved advantageous for business as well as personal aspects of my life.also netted me a new c n c machine set to arrive in a few weeks.if i let the payment scare me guess what?id have no machine and always wonder how it would be if i had it.now ill have first hand experience.well executed plans are not a gamble ,even if the results arent what we wanted tham to be.just the fact that we executed them properly is an accomplishment in itself.
 
I seen a 10 vane pump at this site for $109.00
"http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=200-4Rpump"



Gentlemen, I agree with doing it right the first time. But in this case I'm using used parts. I going to be using used Orange stripe I bought with low miles on it from a trust fellow board member. But it still used.

So my goal is to see how I like this setup and when the time does come for a complete rebuild. I'll know where I want to go stall wise and shift wise.

The hole behind the seal looks to be around 3/16" (I don't know the exact measurement until I get it to work tomorrow.) I suppose I could get a 10-vane rebuild kit with new slide. But I don't know if all the vanes are matched.

See the dilemma I am in, My dealing with all used parts. If I had a new $600.00 converter, I would be writing this now. But at this time I do not.
So...
 
That should read " I would not be writting this now" Sorry for the typo's
 
Well, after removing the stator shaft and noticing that the bushing the converter rides on is scored. I decided it’s time to go into the pump. (You guys are /where right).

So I ordered a new bushing and a 13 vane pump kit with new slide.

Well, it is a learning experience.
 
When I go to press the stator shaft back in. Should I do it when the pump is assembled or apart?

My concern is marring the mating surfaces of the pump half’s.
 
You Really Need To Read This!!!!

The following is an excerp from this major thread.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31365

*PUMP:
There are two stators used. 150 casting is 81-82, and 088 is casting for 83-90. There are 3 pump bodies used : last 3 casting numbers, 149 (81-82), 082 (83-86) and 690 (late86-90). The 150 casting pump stator will only work with the 149 casting pump bodies, and vice versa. The pressure regulator valves will only work with corresponding pumps too. The valve with a solid valve, no hole, will only work in a 150/149 combo. The valve with the hole will only work in the 088 casting stator. If not, severe pressure problems will result. The 088 stator and both the 082 and the 690 pump bodies will interchange.

We will divide this into two parts. The pump body, and the pumpcover or stator.

*PUMP BODY: First, never use a pump body twice unless you are reinstalling the SAME pump rotor,slide,and veins,
that came out of the running trans. If you are going to reuse,modify pump body as will be explained and reinstall. If pump rotor,slide and or body needs to be replaced start with a "refinished" body. The ONLY way to correctly do this is a tideous and time consuming method. First, our experiance has led us to use GM parts EXCLUSIVLY and they must be ordered in sets from them(GM) at the request of the builder. They must be exact to .002. This is how we do it and have been commended on it by GM themselves:

We at PTS Xtreme now offer 4340 Billet pump rotors and slides. To date and 500 sets later, NOT ONE FAILURE!!!!!. However, the only negative side to these parts is they are expensive to make. BUT, no pressure drop hot and NOT ONE FAILURE! The other important thing about these rotors and slides is that we make every one the exact same down to the 1000th thousandth!.
Another PTS Xtreme FIRST!!!!!

Also, We have seen NO GAIN , at all , except in the late 2000 and up 4l60e's, utilizing the 13 vane setup. In fact.... It is actually weaker and someday if you have one in your hand you will see why. We make our 4340 ones 10 vane and that is all that is needed. PERIOD! No myths, no bullshiit.
If you arev to retain the stock material rotor and slide, PLEASE DO NOT USE AFTERMARKET SETS!!!! THEY ARE VERY Inconsistant in size and in material workmanship.
WARNING Will Robinson.... Very important step here.

Use only GM parts ...slide,rotor,veins,all purchased at the same time, all measured at the same time. 10 Vein is more than enough. Reason for increase in vein count, was to try to knock down the pulses or pulsation of the pump. We noticed quite an improvement from 7 to 10 but not much more 10 to 13. We still use the 10. GM actually has 16 different part numbers for slides and rotors. The aftermarket has 1!!!! That should tell you something!!!!

Remove any burrs in slide and rotor. (Yes,even if brand new right out of box is being used,as I have not seen one yet right out of box with no nicks or burrs at all, Not one.) Wet sanding by hand in solvet and sanding edges with 600 or so over GLASS works well.
Wash in hot water and dishsoap and compressed air dry and set aside. The Chrome Moly ring kits have been known to be a little rough too. We wet sand with 600 over glass in solvent the flat edges and then fine wire wheel the circumferance. It is imperitive that the pump rotor and slide are measured very carefully. They MUST be within .002 of the pump cavity depth.
Too loose and line pressure will be low hot, and too tight, rotor and slide could bind, and break rotor, slide,converter neck,or all the forementioned parts. We set them .0013 in the hole, or in the "pocket". The way this is done is, the face is cut, or surfaced. Then another tool bit comes in and with the premeasured rotor and slide thickness', cuts it to .0013 clearence. This is VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!! . The CNC mill then cuts the relieve groove in front to allow more drainback behind seal relieving pressure on seal. (On the 690 pump bodies , Gm did this. On the 082, 149 pump bodies they need to be modified.)
All are done on a CNC machine. That is how they were done originally, and this is the way it should be done now. If you have a good pump body and have the ability to measure it to the thousandth, you could play rotor roulette and get your calipers out and measure 50 slides and rotors before you get two that would fit, PERFECTLY. AND, you could probobly pull it of, but it is not exact. And........another point or intrest would be...... the aftermarket ( parts co's) gives a tolerence of .7071-7076 which is six thousandths and the tolerence for the pump is two thousandths, THIS WILL NOT WORK!!!! It will be either too loose or too tight. See the problem with aftermarket 10 and 13 vein swaps? Now, all the 13 vein rotors and slides I have seen are all on the thicker side of the scale so most will bind when hot if not properly clearenced.
Ok, now we modify the pump return hole by drilling it to 9/64ths. From both directions.
In pump bushing bore the 690 pump bodies have a "step" at which the bushing seats against when installed. The 082, 149 bodies do not, so we mill a slot on three sides of bushing bore 1/4 inch down. After red loctiting the teflon coated bushing, press in hole with arbor press and bushing driver. Then , "peen" the bushing or "stake" the bushing into the milled flats. Flip over , and press in red loctited seal into seal bore. Assemble all pump rotor parts in , of all things, Cam shaft install lube. The red stuff.

*PUMP STATOR:
A hardned stator should always be installed. But there is a correct way to do this and a hacker way to do this. We will discuss the correct way and if anything varies from this it would fall into the other catagory.
Remove bolts from old stator. PRESS out with a press, not with a hammer by beating on. If the stator just falls out when pressed against a bench, ck bore closely for damage, and or walking. Now to install stator red loctite the base surface. Clean the bore cavity real well. Use dowel pins to guide as you press it in . DO NOT BEAT IN WITH HAMMER!!!! after presed in,replace screws with a drop of loctite and reinstall.Stator Guide pin is also OD clutch washer lube. Drill feed hole .040 for feed to washer.Drill seal return hole 9/32 as well. Now after stator has been pressed in , chuck it up in lathe and ck for the stator to be perpendicular to the pump surface. I only see 1 in 20 that is actually perfectly straight...1-20!!!!!!!!!! So then to resurface perpendicular to the stator, we must "parrell deck" meaning you cut the back side of pump , then bring carriage around and cut the front side without moving material being machined, so everything is cut to center....... meaning the stator is EXACTLY 90 degrees to the pump surface. Not doing this is a big cause for front pump failure as if it is not performed,they are fighting center all the time and will eventually bind in cavity. End result,premature pump failure.
Now installing valves and pump blow off.
The use of either a stock pr valve or the slightly modified aftermarket ones are fine. The pressure reg spring should be a little stronger but the stock one is just fine. The 1-2 int boost valve is available in both .300 and .400 sizes for 1-2 and reverse line boost pressure rise. We recommend the .400. The .500 tv boost valve is also recommended with a 5.46 TV boost valve in the works.(More on this to come late spring.) We now even make a 5.70 TV pump boost valve. Polish lock up valve and reinstall cking the lock up valve springs for rust or fatigue.

Bruce
WE4
www.PTSXTREME.com
 
What is the max depth that the pocket be in the case housing ?
 
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