Alcohol vs C16 dyno comparison

[Night Train]

Everyone is always asking what the difference is between running alky and race gas. The Nebra crew held a dyno day on 4/27 in RI and one of our fearless members ran back-to-back comparisons on his car. Temps were in the low 60's and the humidity was low. Below are his comments on the runs.
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 19:06:01 -0400
From: Brian 'waGoN' Lee <BLeeBuick@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Thanks Guys!!!

Jacob,
Thanks for setting up the Dyno Day. Tell Mike, thanks, next time
you see him. Bruce thanks for the directions.

My results??
First run out was 100+hp with over 500ft-lbs
Second run was something like 46 hp don't remember torque.
Hooked up TV cable (disconnected it in hopes of preventing kickdown)
Probably what was freaking out the dyno.

Next run 357 hp 449 ft-lbs
Next run 356 hp 485 ft-lbs
Now these were all with 93 octane and a 50/50 mix of water and
Denatured
alcohol
Boost level?? Not too sure. It peaked at 25 for the last one, but my
boost recorder reads peak, but my boost usually peaks then drops a
pound
or two, so I don't know. What I do know is that I had little to no
knock on all of these runs.

Paul, buddy, I didn't forget ya!

I had the time, so I pumped out 5 gallons of the 93 octane, and added 5
gallons of 117. (You owe me $38 by the way, just kidding.) That
could've bought me 5 gallons of alcohol. Ahhh, but in the interest of
science, it was a worthwhile investment. I then turned off the alcohol
injection apparatus. (I almost cried, my hands are still shaking.)

I made one run, and got 361 hp. A whopping jump of 4 horsies. The
torque went up too, 521 ft-lbs. That was a good jump, but since I got
something like 511 on the 100+ hp run, I am not relying on these values
a whole lot.
I made another run, but on this one I upped the boost a tad. It peaked
at 27.2#.
367 hp and 466 ft-lbs
Little to no knock on the sober runs also.

So here is a quick breakdown:
93 octane w/alc+H2O

357hp 449ft-lbs
356hp 485ft-lbs

117 octane on the wagon(so to speak)

361hp 521ft-lbs
367hp 466ft-lbs*

*boost increase(half a turn, what ever that equaled, maybe 1 or 2#)

Well, anyone can see that...... Well, I am not trying to convince
anyone
anything. You're all adults, make up your own minds.

One thing though. I am not doing this in an effort to make more power.
I run the alcohol injection so that it is always there. So that I
don't
have to replace O2 sensors, and so that my gas is like $1.50 gal, not
$7.50. If I had a car that I just pretty much drove to the track, and
raced, then I might be inclined to dump in the good stuff. But when
you
pull into the track in Grandma's old grocery getter, and then pull up
to
the gas shack and dump in some purple or blue liquid, people get the
idea that you ain't Grandma, although the lack of gray hair should clue
them in. I was gonna say the mustache, but hey ya know?

Who knows, with better tuning, maybe the race fuel will net better
results, but the way that I run the car, it is good enough for me, and
since I am actually running less boost than last year, maybe I can get
by without replacing so many head gaskets this year. And, I think I
can
tune the alchy system just a little to remove a small bog/flooding out
condition that I seem to be getting sometimes at WOT.

----------------------

Bob

 

[V6POWER]

Thanks a lot for the info. I run SMC alcohol and I have always wondered how that would compare to race gas.

 

[1QWIK6]

I think i rather run race gas and get 50 MORE HP!. Think of it... 50 HP... that is A LOT!

 

[salvageV6]

Where did you get the 50HP number from?

 

[1QWIK6]

Sorry.. that's 50 MORE #'s Torque . That is something you can feel. (+15 more HP)

 

[TwinTurboIroc]

even still, that isn't good hp economics.....15hp more for $38 worth of race gas?

 

[1QWIK6]

I'm looking at the 50# of torque.

Remember... HP sells cars.... TORQUE wins races

 

[Quick6]

when you average the two runs out he only gained 26ftlb's of torque, you probably won't even feel a difference in seat of the pants and the HP gain was only 10. It looks like alcohol was the winner here when you factor in the costs.

 

[TT/Ameasap]

The car could have been flooding a little with the alky like he said. I think properly tuned that we would have seen better results!!

 

[blackbuick87]

He said he pumped in five gallons of race gas. But it doesnt say how much 93 was still in there. The octane hide to be pretty high though since he was able to run 27# o' boost

 

[PRSRIZD_V6]

This was posted on the other board. Steve Wood made the point that you folks are missing and that is that C16 would probably have allowed for more power via a boost or timing increase. I would safely bet that he could have pulled much more power.

 

[Thunder]

Does anybody know what his setup is?? Turbo, inj, IC?? Also, how much timing was run??

Mike

 

[bobc455]

1qwik6,

He didn't pick up 50 ft-lbs. It says on his first run (on alky) he got 500+ ft-lbs, in fact the exact number was 511. He then ran 521 on the race fuel. He also had a hard time keeping the tranny from downshifting, so each of those numbers had some variability. Not to mention the error that dynos have (2%?).

Also, he pumped out as much of the 93 as he could- there might have been a gallon or two left, but it was mostly the 117. There was no knock on the run.

The motor is fairly stock, with a few upgrades (don't remember them all). He was running a Thrasher chip (whatever timing that runs).

The important thing was that there was no knock using either system, and he was using a fair amount of boost (25-27ish #s).

-Bob Cunningham
bobc@gnttype.org

 

[salvageV6]

I asked that question because I made almost the exact numbers on alky. and 24psi. with my PTE51.

He said to email the guy but I don't know him.

Anyway my combo is below. 20* timing.

 

[DAILYFLOGGER]

Originally posted by bobc455
...he had a hard time keeping the tranny from downshifting...

Also the chicken---He was very distracted by the chicken

 

[galoush]

c 16 vs alky

I have to admit i checked out you post and thats some interesting data there , im still a bit skeptical though ,i meen the tuning issue makes me wonder a little , oh well to each his own ALCOHOLs for drinking guys . Ok im done nice data again

 

[bobc455]

Stupid Question of the Day

So okay, if you can run an extra 7 pounds of boost on alky (about 23# vs. about 16#), and you can run about 7 pounds of boost on 117 race fuel, can you run 14 extra pounds of boost on alky *and* race fuel?

-Bob Cunningham
bobc@gnttype.org

 

[wagon]

Wow, somehow I missed this thread, and it was me who tried it.

My setup is:
Stock block.
NA crank(yeah, so what!)
Comp Cams 206 I think.
51 Turbo (hasn't melted yet)
Stock intercooler
Home made cold air setup(9" Air cleaner behind headlights)
Walbro 307
Blue Tops
Thrasher 108octane

You guys that don't agree with it. Too bad. All I did it for was because someone wanted to see a comparison between the two.

I'm not relying on the torque numbers too much, because as I said, I got 511 torque with only 100 something hp. That didn't sound too good. Also, Yeah, it did jump 50 ft lbs, but look at the last run. Higher horse power from higher boost, but that number was lower than one of the bartender runs, at only 466. I agree torque does win races, but the HP numbers seemed more stable, so that is what I was using for comparison.

My gas guage doesn't sork, but I think that I had maybe 2 gallons left in the tank. That would give about 110 octane. Even if there was 3 gallons left, it would still be 108. And I can run 25# with the alcohol setup. Even with 117 octane, I wouldn't want to run any more than that.

$38 Yeah, some may think that isn't too much for a few extra hp, but think about it in real terms. That's $38 for race fuel compared to maybe $7 for regular fuel, plus maybe $1 for the amount of alcohol that I use(and that is being very generous). So that is a difference of $30. For only 5 gallons of gas. My tank holds about 18 gallons. That's $108 per tankful more. Wow, it's starting to add up. Now, if I fill the tank only once per week, that's $5600/year. That still isn't too much, right? That's only like a couple of turbos a tranny, and maybe a good set of drag radials, or how about a front mount. But throw in a few lead fouled O2 sensors at what, $30 a pop, now it is starting to get expensive. Now it is stating to cut into drinking money. The other alcohol.

Now, I do this so that I am ready to run full boost when I pull out of my driveway, or when I am on the highway, basically whenever I feel like it. With race fuel I can't do this. Shoot, $5600?? I spent less than that to build the car. $400 for the car, $1500 for the parts car. Motor tranny and other stuff, didn't add up to $3700. With the money I saved, I think I'll go and build another one.

You guys that would prefer to spend more for the race fuel. More power to ya. If I had a car that I mostly raced, I might do the same. But if you want your car to perform exactly the same whether it be on the track, or Route 93, then you may do something like I did. To me, it is just two different ways of doing things. One is right, and the other one is....well........ right also.

Well, I gotta go. Any has any questions, keep them to yourself. I mean, feel free to drop me a line, or ask here.


Brian

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Thanks for the reply Wagon. Of course there will be questions raised, but you have done us a favor in showing us a comparison. Nobody has done that yet.

No doubt this is very encouraging news for somebody that wants to run 80-90 percent of the power on the street as they could run at the track with expensive race fuel.

No matter what the comments, you have opened a few eyes.

Thanks!

 

[wagon]

No problem Tim,
There is one other thing that I didn't mention, that should throw a little more confusion into this:
One of the major advantages of alcohol/water injection is that it cools off the intake air. Now, since this was tested on a dyno, I wasn't getting a good flow of air through the intercooler. So, the alcohol runs may have been at a slight advantage compared to the sober runs. Maybe not, I don't know for sure. There was a big fan blowing into the radiator and that may have helped a little, but that was basically to keep cool going through the radiator. I doubt that it provided enough air to match the amount that rushes through the intercooler at 100mph. Some time this year I may try to do the same type of comparison at a track. That is where it really counts anyways. I will conduct the test the same as on the dyno. A few runs with pump gas, and alky/H2O, drain the tank, dump in the good stuff(I mean expensive stuff), and beat on the car some more. I'll let you all know what happens. I will probably do it in Sept. at Bristol. A multi day event will be better for it I think.

Brian