alky injection when is cold air to cold??

[TA49-WE4]

Ok so i have been thinking about putting alky injection on my car to just cool down the air charge on those hot june/july/august days.

I am running 100% E85 already.

My questions are

1. Can you get the air intake temp to cold?

2. What is the intake air temp that you shoot for that makes the most power?

3. Im going to move my air temp sensor to the dog house. Is that the best place for it?

 

[GNVYUS 1]

1) Yes

2) With E85 knocking down the MAT another 20-30 you'd want no lower than 100 degrees MAT temps. But if you were to dyno or track the car you could experiment and report back.

3) Yes, this is now considered a Manifold Air Temperature sensor.

 

[bison]

I want the injected alky as hot as possible and i want my intake temps as low as possible. Hot alky will boil faster and remove the heat faster and allow a higher volume to be injected and further drop intake temps. Colder intake temps will increase the hp at least 1% for every 10*. The location of the sensor doenst matter.

 

[Onalky87]

I want the injected alky as hot as possible and i want my intake temps as low as possible. Hot alky will boil faster and remove the heat faster and allow a higher volume to be injected and further drop intake temps. Colder intake temps will increase the hp at least 1% for every 10*. The location of the sensor doenst matter.

Hmm this is very interesting to me. Is there any power to be gained by the Alky/meth being hot like more tuning or will it just allow u to set the gain lower? Maybe running the steel line up close to the dp b4 it going up to the up pipe?

 

[TA49-WE4]

I want the injected alky as hot as possible and i want my intake temps as low as possible. Hot alky will boil faster and remove the heat faster and allow a higher volume to be injected and further drop intake temps. Colder intake temps will increase the hp at least 1% for every 10*. The location of the sensor doenst matter.

At what point does the air get to cold? GNVYUS 1 is saying 70 deg or so in the intake runner of the head. So I take it I would be looking for around 100 deg in the doghouse being the E85 should knock the temp down 20 or 30 deg.

How are you heating up the alky? Some kind of 12 volt heater I take it. Nos bottle heater, seat heater or something of that sort?

 

[Razor]

Temps below 130 degree's dont yield more power. They do but its negligible.

E85 doesnt cool the charge. It does have higher octane. Understand the injector is a few inches above the port. Gasoline would have the same cooling effect.

The use of an alky kit when you use E85 is to bring IAT temps down due to an in-efficient IC. Example a stock IC. And since you have octane with the E85.. then all you need is a small nozzle for temperature control. Like an M10.

Mount IAT inside dog house or intake. Then adjust alcohol for temperature control.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Keep an eye out there as E85 carbed vehicles are showing 50 to 60 degree MAT temp changes and EFI sees generally a 200 degree EGT drop from E85, you don't need to take my word for it. Since E85 needs a richer mixture than gas, that alone would help lower cylinder temps. If E85 didn't lower the cylinder temps, you wouldn't see 112 octane type boost numbers with the stuff since it's AKI (anti knock index) octane is 105.

Concerning heating of alky, I wouldn't bother putting it near hot items or external heaters etc, I don't think Bison you're recommending that are you? There have been tests that proved you need to spray the alky sooner in the inlet piping, this will give it a longer time to cool the charge. That's all you need, nothing fancy as 250 degree turbo temps will help evaporate any alky mist.

 

[Razor]

Keep an eye out there as E85 carbed vehicles are showing 50 to 60 degree MAT temp changes and EFI sees generally a 200 degree EGT drop from E85, you don't need to take my word for it. Since E85 needs a richer mixture than gas, that alone would help lower cylinder temps. If E85 didn't lower the cylinder temps, you wouldn't see 112 octane type boost numbers with the stuff since it's AKI (anti knock index) octane is 105.

Concerning heating of alky, I wouldn't bother putting it near hot items or external heaters etc, I don't think Bison you're recommending that are you? There have been tests that proved you need to spray the alky sooner in the inlet piping, this will give it a longer time to cool the charge. That's all you need, nothing fancy as 250 degree turbo temps will help evaporate any alky mist.

The advantage of a blow through carb setup over an EFI setup is that the gasoline cools the charge. More so with E-85. But understand your dealing with a runner and many more inches of distance this is how this is accomplished. This is why nozzles are used up-stream to cool the air.

Heating the alcohol is a double edge sword. In one case if it gets too hot it boils(160 df). If it boils it will have air bubbles.. if you get enough heat on it.. it will boill all the way down to the pump.. the pump cannot pump alcohol with air bubbles as this will cavitate it.

I have seen more problems with applications that put hoses where directed heat is applied to them from the boiling the lines out issue. Its always the same call.. delays getting alcohol into the motor as the line is dry.

 

[kshef]

I have one of my nozzles mounted directly above my downpipe...it gets pretty hot, need to shield it?

 

[bison]

At what point does the air get to cold? GNVYUS 1 is saying 70 deg or so in the intake runner of the head. So I take it I would be looking for around 100 deg in the doghouse being the E85 should knock the temp down 20 or 30 deg.

How are you heating up the alky? Some kind of 12 volt heater I take it. Nos bottle heater, seat heater or something of that sort?

Its too cold when the alky injected wont boil. It can lead to a distribution problem and wont further help control detonation. Im not heating it. under hood temps heat it. Ive heard of some cars having it boil when the reservoir was located where the factory overflow reservoir is. Ive notced roughly 1% power increase for every 10* drop no matter what the air pressure was. Alky injection will really level the playing field if you have an inefficient intercooler core/no intercooler as long as your not getting a lot of pressure drop. E85 wont show a measured drop in air inlet temp since its injected very close to the cylinder. Its octane rating reduces detonation and allows more aggressive timing.

 

[bison]

I don't think Bison you're recommending that are you?

Not rec'ing it just stating its most effective when its closer to its boiling point (but not boiling) when injected. It cant remove the heat till it vaporizes. The closer it is to the point it begins to vaporize will have the most abrupt drop in charge air temp.

 

[Razor]

There are two terms. Flash and Boil.

Flash=changes phase happens at 70 df
Boil= makes little bubles is 155 df

You need enough temp to flash/changes phase for it to work. So if you shoot methanol out of a nozzle into a cool condition(below 70) the methanol will stay in droplet form=wet

This is why "water" injection gets a bad wrap on being tuned.

Flash on water is 180 df
Boil temp is 212 df

As it takes a lot of temp to get it to "work"

True if the alcohol is shot in a little warmer it stands to work better. Think of it like a hot brake rotor.. you muist it with brake cleaner and it dis-appears. Mist it with water.. will stay wet for a lot longer. The hotter the surface the faster the water dis-appears.

back under my rock