Are OEM motors internal or externally balanced

[KendallF]

Re: Re: In or out.. 1 more time!

Originally posted by bruce
While balanced as an assembly means it's balanced as an assembly that doesn't mean anything about being internally or externally balanced.

Feel free to read the Power Book.
Also, on page 86 they show a modified flexplate with the holes opened up for heavy duty use. On page 88 they show a Buick Heavy Duty Dampener and it has no offsets.

Sevice manuals are designed for gerbles to be able to understand.

Easy to confuse and blend balancing and harmonics.

Trannie shops routinely replace flexplates without engine tear downs and rebalancing.

Bruce, you're wrong...and rude about it, as usual. The modified flexplate and heavy duty balancer they show are for stage motor, internally balanced applications. While you're recommending reading the Power Source Book you might try page 83 where it says "Production engines are balanced with the flywheel; do this when balancing for any heavy-duty application. Or you can have the reciprocating and rotating mass of the engine balanced and install a "zero balanced" flywheel, which most engine builders prefer" (Emphasis added by yours truly). I will go out and take pictures of my stock and S2 parts if I must!

 

[S2V6RACER]

I too am a gerbel. I have finally found myself tonight.

I agree with Chuck, and even though I like cedar chips, toilet paper rolls and find myself running around inside of a clear ball to get absolutely nowhere, I agree with my fellow gerbel.

Back to digging in my cedar chips.

 

[tazgn]

Umm, Dumb Question here

Just a quick (dumb) question. I never realized the flexplate is designed to only go on one way (i.e. balanced). Is it only possible to put the flexplate on that one way or could I have screwed that up during a recent rebuild? I don't seem to remember having to screw with the alignment of the bolt holes to get it on, so either I got lucky the first try at aligning the holes to the crank, or it will go on in any orientation and it's all messed up now.

Thanks,
Derrick

 

[bruce]

Re: Re: Re: In or out.. 1 more time!

Originally posted by KendallF
Bruce, you're wrong...and rude about it, as usual. The modified flexplate and heavy duty balancer they show are for stage motor, internally balanced applications. While you're recommending reading the Power Source Book you might try page 83 where it says "Production engines are balanced with the flywheel; do this when balancing for any heavy-duty application. Or you can have the reciprocating and rotating mass of the engine balanced and install a "zero balanced" flywheel, which most engine builders prefer" (Emphasis added by yours truly). I will go out and take pictures of my stock and S2 parts if I must!

The discussion was about oem, before folks went into tangent mode.

But back to the orginal subject matter,
Yes the flexplate has some balancing involved with it. But that balancing is optional, please reread your won quote where is stats the flexplate can be done as a 0 balance piece, if it's balance is option, then it's not necessary as a design function.

It wasn't rude, it was a statment of fact.
Feel free to read thur lots of the service manuals and you'll see continual errors repeated time after time.

Try balancing a SBC 400 with out the EXTERNAL WEIGHT and see how far you get, vs balancing a GN crank without the flexplate.
Like YOU noted it can be 0 balanced. If it can be used 0 balanced then the engine isn't externally balanced.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

ONCE MORE

Ted, Bruce most likely has other uses for his gerbiles!!
looks as tho one has "gone off course" and is affecting his mind!!

 

[The Pro]

If you are talking about the stock motor, I don't give a $hit WHAT anyone said, it is EXTERNALLY BALANCED FROM THE FACTORY.

Having said that, I *have* seen an internally balanced stock block/stock crank. A neutral balancer AND flywheel were used, and the slugs of mallory metal were very visible on the crank....


All this semantical BS is just that: B S.

The thread was about whether or not the stock block was externally or internally balanced. Those that can fog a mirror answered this question correctly.

 

[WE4]

No........... WHAT this thread is about..

Is I have a customer with a shaking problem. he asked for a JW Wheel. I sold him a 93007 like all the others, like JW sent me for each application. One has a weight, one does not. I have never seen the one with the weight used on anything but a stage II.
I send him a zero balance flexplate. It shook. Stock plate reinstalled, no shake. Now, did we A) put incorrect flexplate on to begin with, or B) is this one we have defective and out of balance?
THAT IS THE FRIGGIN QUESTION!!!!!!!

Now, I am just duped on this and I did as the customer asked. I will also be in touch with JW when I can , considering I am leaving thursday morning for Vegas. I Just want this question answered or better yet, I overnighted the flexplate to Tim and he will swap out. ( Don't worry Mike, We are PAYING for it, )
We will know tommorrow what is up. I just want to solve this mystery.


Bruce
WE4

And.... I do not care for gerbils of any kind.

nough of that, back to subject at hand, or in hand

 

[quickt]

The holes that are cut in the factory flex plate are for balancing. the JW wheel has no holes and is balanced at zero for a internally balanced engine. If you install that flywheel on a stock engine that has not been balanced for it the engine will vibrate. I did this last year on my car as I was also told by JW it would work. The books may say the v-6 is internally balanced from the factory and from a factory stand point that may be. But in the racing world a motor that is internally balanced uses flywheel and damper that are balanced at zero and the production v-6 does not. I had a motor balanced for that JW Wheel and they welded a large weight on the flywheel to get it to balance with my production damper, crank and rods. I call that external balancing.

 

[WE4]

Thanks lonnie....

Me bad. My fault. Bruce is a diick. I can take it. I was wrong and shipped incorrect. I was , however, doing what JW said. I am taking all the heat. Flame me, Mike. It should be there tommorrow. It will be installed. Man, this sucks.... I don't know what else to say but I was wrong and think I should be tarred and feathered.!

GET A ROPE!!!!!!!!!

Friggin Einstein, and... I thought I was so close too........

Bruce
WE4

 

[FRCEFED6]

BALANCING...

i have been going through this same thing. from what i learned if you try to balance a production crank internally..ie using a zero balance flywheel and balancer you will wind up spending about $600 in mallory. the problem is that the counterweights are not heavy enough on a prod. crank. so therefore you have to use a weighted balancer and flywheel to compensate. also if you have an SFI balancer and you weld or drill on it you just voided the SFI rating. good luck. jeremy

 

[qwknuf6]

The Factory 3.8 Turbo 86-87 engines are externally balanced .

The factory flywheel has holes cut in only ONE SIDE to give it an "unbalance" to balance the internals ,the flywheel goes on only one way.

The factory harmonic Balancer is weighted on ONE SIDE to also balance out the internal rotating assembely (crank ,rods and pistons).It again is keyed and goes on only one way.

This is what "external balance " means ,the flywheel and harmonic balancer are weighted ,on one side, to balance the internal rotating assembly.

INTERNALY BALANCED ENGINES :
The internal rotating assembly is balanced in such a way the flywheel and harmonic balancer can be nuetraly balanced

This type of engine has a unweighted flywheel and harmonic balancer,a flywheel for internaly balanced engine would have no holes(most common) or holes evenly spaced to give the flywheel a zero type of balance .

Both Factory and stage 2 engines could be "internal" OR "externely" balanced , it depends on the machining .

If the engine is internally balanced you dont need to take the flywheel and harmonic balancer to the machine shop , IF the eng is externely balanced you must take the flywheel and the H/B to the machine shop for balancing .

If you keep the rotating assembly (pistons rods and crank ) stock weights you will not NEED to rebalance .

Bruce have a safe and relaxing trip

Mark 36.2..... best 1/4mi pass for 2002, I'm working on it

 

[KendallF]

Bruce, it's OK..don't shoot us, we're just having a little fun with the whole topic. No matter where the confusion lies I will bet on Bruce going the extra mile to resolve the situation...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Can I get that check made out to "CASH", Bruce?

 

[WE4]

I just feel bad.

On the positive side tho.....

I think we ALL learned something here and as long as we use that knowledge in the future, I think all will be all right.

And "No" Kendall, but a very sincere "Thank you"

Topic may be fun, but I am having no fun about it.

Embarrassed is more the word.


And, I put on this heavy, hot, nasty, flame suit for nothing? Gee... I figured everybody would have taken their crack at me on this one. !
Only problem is it is well deserved....

I'm an assshole thats an a-s-s-h-o-l-e, thats an a-s-s-h-o-l-e .... everybody sing..............(Dennis Leary)

Bruce
WE4

 

[wh1-Denver]

WE4/Bruce, no flame ever intended.
I didn’t even want to tell you about the post on the phone since it was getting so heated up in there but you were standing your ground on the int, ext, issue. All I ever wanted was a kick a$$ tranny, stall, and a fly wheel that would not be the weakest link after spending all that hard earned cash on all the other parts and labor.
If you read all of my post I never mentioned any names or businesses.
I was just trying to get the info from all of the other turbo buick enthusiast around the great US of America that could clarify this. They replied and I believed them and you believed JW. I believe that JW needs a good a$$ chewing. I would like to provide them with my services if anyone happens to have their ph#. They cost us a lot of time and frustration. I pray that they did not cost me my rear main bearing or the input shaft bearing on the tranny!!!! So all things said Bruce I don’t think bad of you and your are not all the things that were said . I just feel that I am the one that got raw end of the deal here.

 

[TurboTR]

BAN!! the gerbils, lol!

TurboTR

 

[ijames]

Hey Bruce (WE4), one little thing that may have lead you astray was your comment that since the stock flexplate had holes instead of added weights it should have been internally balanced, but external balancing can mean adding or subtracting weight, whatever the motor needs, not just adding weight (we love you, man ).

 

[Mr URL]

Re: No........... WHAT this thread is about..

Originally posted by WE4
I am leaving thursday morning for Vegas.

I am also leaving for Las Vegas Thursday morning. I'll be out there until Monday sometime. I'm staying at the MGM Grand. Give me a buzz when you are out there if you have time for a cold one.

 

[Steve Y]

When these motors went down the line they just reached into a tub and grabbed a flywheel or balancer and threw it on.....for whatever that means....then they went to hot test and then into a car.
I'll walk across the street to the engine plant some time this week and find out what they called that type of balancing.
Steve

 

[Jack Evers]

10,000 years from now..

..when the internet archeologists come across this thread, they will study it and debate amoungst themselves whether this motor should be termed internally balanced or externally balanced.