Balancing "deep" rims

[BlackMetal]

It didn't even occur to me until today when I started balancing my new wheels at work that I didn't know how to do it on rims with little to no offset. I work for Toyota and I'm used to balancing wheels where the center mounting face is offset all the way to the outside of the wheel, so if you want to use sticky wheel weights you just hide them behind the spokes and you're set. But on my new wheels with a lip on them, I realized it wasn't that simple. If I tried putting the weights behind the center face of the wheel, it would just ask for more weight in different places because it wasn't truly a weight on the outside of the wheel, due to the lip.

My only idea was to put it back on the tire machine and use the bead breaker to pull the tire down enough that I could stick the weight on the INSIDE of the rim. It worked on one wheel, but the second rim wouldn't cooperate, every time I threw it back on the balancer I'd hear the weight fall off and bounce around in the tire.

I guess since it's the inside of the rim I could rough it up with some sand paper and get it to stick better, but I thought I would ask here first.

Is there a "right" way to do this? Should I just get them as close as I can and hope I don't feel any vibration? My idea of sticking them inside the wheel seemed like it might be the only way. Even the more experienced guys at work didn't know what to do, they said with wheels like that the only way you're going to balance the outer lip is with the traditional weights that you hammer on, which I obviously wasn't going to do. Need advice.

 

[SouthernCal GN]

You don't want sticky weights inside the wheel- centrifugal force will work against you to fling the weights away from the wheel.

The balance machine you have should have a setting for putting the weights on the inboard side of the rim- the machine should compensate for the offset.

 

[BlackMetal]

Guess I'll have to try again on Monday. None of the journeymen knew anything about making the machine compensate for a wheel like that.

 

[SouthernCal GN]

Back in the day, I used to work at Firestone; the balance machine had pictograms of where you wanted to place the weights.....press the corresponding buttton, and the balancer does its thing....

Good luck!

 

[Madcat455]

The machine should have the ability to do what's called a "static" balance... It'll change the settings to allow for only placing weights on the center plane of the wheel.

Just place them as close to the center of the wheel as possible(while on the inside of the bolt circle. Don't be afraid to use weights in two different locations on the same plane... I had to do it on my old Draglights, worked like a charm.

 

[BlackMetal]

I figured a static balance would still leave a possibility for vibration, tire wear, etc, but if that ends up being the best I can do, I'll just static balance it.

 

[8UWITH6]

Nah......... your machine should measure the rim diameter and width. You should then be able to place weights on the inside lip and behind the spokes with no problems because the machine knows the width of the wheel. However, STATIC is an option. Thats how I did my wheels.......... have re-checked them once since installation last fall and one of the fronts took .25 oz more. HTH

 

[BlackMetal]

Nah......... your machine should measure the rim diameter and width. You should then be able to place weights on the inside lip and behind the spokes with no problems because the machine knows the width of the wheel. However, STATIC is an option. Thats how I did my wheels.......... have re-checked them once since installation last fall and one of the fronts took .25 oz more. HTH

Yes the machine has the measuring arms that you pull out and place on each edge of the rim and then step on the brake to confirm the reading but that still doesn't really give the machine any idea of what kind of offset the wheel has. As you said yourself, that just tells it width and diameter. It doesn't know that the wheel has a big lip where I can't stick any weights. If I place weights behind the spokes, I'm just adding weight to the center of the wheel and then the machine asks for more weight on both sides because it's confused.

Oh well being a Saturday some of the guys had the day off, I'll ask around on Monday when some of the other techs are working. Or I'll just spend more time with the machine and figure it out. I had just busted my ass for 9 hours straight working a Saturday, I just wanted to mount the tires and get home, I didn't spend much time trying to figure it out.

 

[Madcat455]

FWIW...

On a static balance.. for the rears, you'll never feel it. With all the weight on our cars, the heavy wheels & Tire combo's.. It'll have to be off by alot (or you going real fast) for you to feel it from the back.

ALSO... I did 7 yrs at a Discount Tire in MI... Static balances were the norm for reverse offset wheels. But later on we got a different balancer (from Hunter I think), that would allow you to use the distance arm to measure 2 points.. one on the inside lip (for hammer on weights) and then you could move it to the inside of the wheel, just behind the bolt circle for your 2nd measurement, That way the computer compensated for you putting the weights there.

That worke excellent too, That's how I did all those Porsche wheels that the doctors and Lawyers would bring in every other weekend for me to put on their Yokohama A008's. They raced their cars (SCCA) on the weekends... must be nice to have that kind of money I probably did 7 cars each friday before the races. Tape weights, and duct tape to cover (had to allow .15-.25 for the weight of the duct tape). We'd get those down to .00-.05 (we switched it from .25 increments to .01 increments) on the Hunter, that thing rocked!!

but on a older machine... a static balance would be fine.

 

[BlackMetal]

Well we have a newer Hunter machine with the road force variation and all that fancy stuff (model GSP9700 or something close to it) so I'm guessing there must be some way to do it.

 

[Madcat455]

Well we have a newer Hunter machine with the road force variation and all that fancy stuff (model GSP9700 or something close to it) so I'm guessing there must be some way to do it.

Hmmm... I wonder if Hunter stopped using that setting. There was a button on ours that cycled between where you wanted the weights. 3 choices, typical Dynamic, static, and then the Tape weight setting which allowed us to use the distance arm for the machine to know where the weights were going.

The machine has to know where the weights are going in order to give a proper amount for you to apply... IE... Typical dynamic balance with tape weight 1 inch from the front lip will need more weight than the machine calls for to "Zero" out.

Knowing this... You can do a Dynamic balance using tape weight... providing you have enough rim inside to make a difference (I'd say the weights need to be 4in apart for each plane).

Just set it for Dynamic... but adjust the rim size for the distance the outer weights are going to be. IE: if the outer weights are 4 in from the inner, then set it for a 4in wide rim (if it can go that low). That way the computer will give you the proper amount and location of weight for that spot from the first spin.

 

[BlackMetal]

Yeah, I was thinking like doing that with one of the position arms if I can't figure anything else out. Instead of putting the outer arm on the lip and letting the machine know that the wheel is 8" wide, I'd pull the measuring arm all the way into the center face and make the machine think that was the outside of the wheel. I still don't know how accurate the results would be like that but it's better than nothing.

I'll keep all these options in mind but with any luck someone at work will show me how I can really do it, no tricks involved.

 

[BlackMetal]

Tried again today at work, found the way to tell the machine I wanted sticky weights on the inside lip and behind the center face, thought I had it all figured out, but it was still asking for stupid weights. Wanted 3oz behind the center face, slapped it on, then it wanted 1.25ozs more, partially overlapping where the 3oz strip already was.

Even the one journeyman I work with who books 100 hour weeks couldn't get it to cooperate, he said take it to Just Tires haha.

Probably just due to the cheap-o wheels. You can see where they welded the center into the wheel and the welds probably contribute to the balance problem. I'll be amazed if a tire store can even get it done.

 

[dyermullet]

When you have to balance tires with that setting the machine dosn't know exactly what it wants. I never put on exactly what the machines call for using that setting, so if it is calling for 1.75 on the same location I would add 1oz and see what comes out. You can also stack weights I've done it before. I usually get the inside as close as possible then I try to out the outerside weight.

The only other thing I could think of but I have never did it is to try to trick the machine. Use a regualr dynamic balance then measure the wheel and change the width to corespond to where the weights are actually going to go. I dunno if that would work or not.

 

[BlackMetal]

Yeah I tried messing around with stacking the weights and everything (since 3oz means a long strip of 12 weights). I could probably get it close enough if I really sat there and fought with it for a half hour. Maybe I will try one more time before I take it somewhere and pay to have it done. I might try the idea of doing a regular dynamic balance and just lying about how wide the wheel is, see if I can get anywhere like that.

 

[turbofish38]

Thats the same machine I use. I dont have a problem even with my wobbley homemade wheels. OK that machine can measure the BS or whatever you have an issue with. Just flip it over static balance. Heck even the 70's vintage machine I used to use had a static feature so yours does too. Measure the wheel at the inside bead. Record it. Usually tap twice on the brake. Than measure at the inside center of the wheel. Get it as close as you can to the BS centerline. Thats how you measure the BS. I never have a problem using the sticky weights either. As long as the brake dust is cleaned off than even the best wheel cleaner cant even loosen the tape on them.

Did you do a search? I'm thinking Hunter probally has the instruction manual on-line for all of thier equipment.

 

[BlackMetal]

Measure the wheel at the inside bead. Record it. Usually tap twice on the brake. Than measure at the inside center of the wheel. Get it as close as you can to the BS centerline. Thats how you measure the BS.

Yes, I was able to figure out how to make the proper measurements when I went back to try a second time. I measured the inside bead and then the center of the wheel and got the machine to understand the backspacing. The problem came when it was asking for a ton of weight in one spot and no matter what I did it would just ask for more somewhere else. It asked for 3ozs, I gave it 3ozs, then it asked for 1.25 in the same spot. I tried to adjust the placement of the 3ozs so it wouldn't ask for anymore weight, nothing. I wasn't going to put 75 weights on my wheel, so I gave up.

Plus as I mentioned, regardless of whether or not I'm "good" at doing this, even two journeymen gave up and told me to take it somewhere.

 

[SouthernCal GN]

Yes, I was able to figure out how to make the proper measurements when I went back to try a second time. I measured the inside bead and then the center of the wheel and got the machine to understand the backspacing. The problem came when it was asking for a ton of weight in one spot and no matter what I did it would just ask for more somewhere else. It asked for 3ozs, I gave it 3ozs, then it asked for 1.25 in the same spot. I tried to adjust the placement of the 3ozs so it wouldn't ask for anymore weight, nothing. I wasn't going to put 75 weights on my wheel, so I gave up.

Plus as I mentioned, regardless of whether or not I'm "good" at doing this, even two journeymen gave up and told me to take it somewhere.

Before you throw in the towel, here's a trick- break the bead, and spin the tire on the rim. IIRC, there's a small paint spot on the tire that indicates where the valve stem should go. Might want to try that.....

 

[BlackMetal]

I'll check that this week. The front tires I'm using were previously installed on my stock GN rims, so any marking for mounting the tire might have worn off by now.

I really hope I can figure this out. I feel stupid taking it to a tire place and paying $60 when I have the machines at work and should be able to do it.

 

[novaderrik]

i'm not a tire tech- in fact, i've never balanced a tire in my life.
but i've seen plenty of my wheels getting balanced, and never seen anyone have a problem. not even that 16 year old kid that just started the week i had the Fuzions put on the GTA rims for the T Type...
they always use that big caliper to measure the width of the rim, then bring out that arm on the machine to the inner bead to register the backspacing.
the machine then knows how wide the rim is and what the offset is.
then they push a button that tells it where you want the weights- inner, outer, or both. they push the button, the tire spins, and they put the weights on where it tells them to. it always comes out perfect on the first try as long as they line up the marks on the new tires with the valve stem.

maybe you just need to get an older machine that is more user friendly?