Bearing issues

[Mad_Trbo]

You say its a Pro-Torque converter which on 12 inch or the 10.5 ? Did you
buy it direct from them or used?

I bought it new from Cotton

18343

PTC 12000 HS

Are the numbers written on the box, it is a 12 inch with lockup.

 

[wickedtt]

I bought it new from Cotton

18343

PTC 12000 HS

Are the numbers written on the box, it is a 12 inch with lockup.

The 12 inch doesn't come 3200 stall like in your signature .. I have heard of the 9.5 ballooning but you would have to remove it and see .

 

[Razor]

The 12 inch doesn't come 3200 stall like in your signature .. I have heard of the 9.5 ballooning but you would have to remove it and see .

The 9.5 ProTorque comes with the anti-ballooning plates. The 12 inch doesnt, actually no 12 inch does. And you would need to see if there is an issue with the hub of the TQ converter where it goes into the back of the crank. Crud/debris could be there not letting the TQ converter move back and forth on the "flex"plate.

The 12 inch converters are like 2800/3000 stall.

On my car it would set off the knock detector at 2500 RPM's between shifts. At wot it would not knock. Had a sorta dieseling sound.

See if the other half of the main cap has identical wear. If so, the crank was pushed forward. And time for a converter inspection.

I ran a 12 inch ProTorque on my first TTA for like 500 passes.. never an issue. I killed 4 transmissions and had a local shop cut it open and clean it out a few time.. never an issue. Used and abused.. I wouldnt hesitate and buy another, hence why I run a non-lockup in my current car.. ProTorque.

 

[Mad_Trbo]

The 9.5 ProTorque comes with the anti-ballooning plates. The 12 inch doesnt, actually no 12 inch does. And you would need to see if there is an issue with the hub of the TQ converter where it goes into the back of the crank. Crud/debris could be there not letting the TQ converter move back and forth on the "flex"plate.

The 12 inch converters are like 2800/3000 stall.

On my car it would set off the knock detector at 2500 RPM's between shifts. At wot it would not knock. Had a sorta dieseling sound.

See if the other half of the main cap has identical wear. If so, the crank was pushed forward. And time for a converter inspection.

I ran a 12 inch ProTorque on my first TTA for like 500 passes.. never an issue. I killed 4 transmissions and had a local shop cut it open and clean it out a few time.. never an issue. Used and abused.. I wouldnt hesitate and buy another, hence why I run a non-lockup in my current car.. ProTorque.

Good info, while tuning @ WOT and logging on the FAST I have seen knock consistently in the shift from 1st to 2nd. It came on around 4700 RPM shifted at 5100 RPM and fail back of pretty quickly. I couldn't figure it out for the life, but figured it wasn't real detonation because of it's consistency.

What causes a converter to balloon, I would hate to get the converter fixed and find that I have an issue further up or down stream.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[lazaris]

Look at the top thurst bearing also to see if the wear pattern looks the same as the bottom half of that shell. Could be that the crank was not indext prior to tighten of the main cap, that's if your lucky. BUT with a billet main cap & a thrust problem, I bet the problem is with the machine work in the fit of that cap.

If your cooler out presure is in spec, I would agree with getchasum. Especially with a billet cap. Are you using studs or bolts? What you need to do is lay the crank in without the cap and see what your end play is. The put the cap on tighten it down and remeasure the end play. If you loose more than .002 then there usually an issue that needs to be adressed. I've seen one go together and it lost too much clearance. What it turned out to be was the stud was binding on the cap not alowing it to square itself. It was the way the billet cap was machined.

 

[getchasum]

Experts, Is it just me in wondering why the wear does not extend all the way to the parting lines of the bearing shell, it also extends longer on one side and showing heavier wear on the other side or is there small ramps in that area of the bearing creating the shadow I'm seeing? To me the wear pattern in the pic makes it appear that the cap was cocked due to misalignment. (Could be from crank not being index correctly or machine work, I'm betting on the 2nd due to the billet caps)

If I'm wrong here someone please point it out but.....
Anyway you go I'd think that top bearing shell needs inspecting. So at this point I'd be deciding if I was going to pull the engine or bring the bearing out the bottom. Once you get it out...you or have someone do a good inspection of both shells to check wear patterns. If they look the same THEN move to looking at the TC.

Mad, just wondering had you lost any oil psi yet & what was it prior?
BTW....what advise is you competent vendor giving you?

 

[Lee Thompson]

ticking noise

The noise could very well be one of the crank counter weights hitting a main cap. This could happen if the crank is moving back and forth far enough. From the pics --hard to tell if it is moving that far.

 

[JCotton]

Terry, did you install the convertor and trans in the prior motor you ran before the new one, if so, did you have any problems with the thrust surface on the prior motor the convertor was installed in? I'll be in the shop this morning, give me a call if you can. AS for shimming this convertor, I have installed many of them and not had to shim any of them, I don't see that as an issue at this point.

 

[Razor]

I dont think you have to shim the 12 inch ones. The 9 inch versions.. I have done 3.. they all needed to be shimmed.

Call Jack.. he'll take care of you.

 

[Mad_Trbo]

Experts, Is it just me in wondering why the wear does not extend all the way to the parting lines of the bearing shell, it also extends longer on one side and showing heavier wear on the other side or is there small ramps in that area of the bearing creating the shadow I'm seeing? To me the wear pattern in the pic makes it appear that the cap was cocked due to misalignment. (Could be from crank not being index correctly or machine work, I'm betting on the 2nd due to the billet caps)

If I'm wrong here someone please point it out but.....
Anyway you go I'd think that top bearing shell needs inspecting. So at this point I'd be deciding if I was going to pull the engine or bring the bearing out the bottom. Once you get it out...you or have someone do a good inspection of both shells to check wear patterns. If they look the same THEN move to looking at the TC.

Mad, just wondering had you lost any oil psi yet & what was it prior?
BTW....what advise is you competent vendor giving you?

Oil pressure was good and the same from the first time I installed the new motor until I started looking into it this week. Idle pressure was around 12-17 psi while cruising @ about 2000 rpm was around 37-40psi and WOT with RPM reaching 5100 - 5150 RPM would generate 55-60 PSI of oil pressure.

I was trying to get my ducks in a row so I could have an intelligent conversation with the vendor. I am still learning so I want to make sure I have as much knowledge on my side.


I see the question about seating , just FYI I used a brass punch to seat the center billet caps. I attached a picture of the bottom of the cap with the thrust bearing. I'll attach another photo of the #3 center in a minute. But if you'll note the color changes on the bottom of the cap it's not uniform, to the point of many here it would seem there was some sort of seating issue or it could be the residue from the assembly lube used ?????

 

[Mad_Trbo]

Photo of #3 center cap

Here is the other cap

When we use the word indexing, what does that mean?

 

[Mad_Trbo]

Thrust Bearing Old motor

This isn't a good look and indicates there was something wrong previous to new motor.


NOTE: This is all information related to the motor I took out of the Buick, not the new on in the car now.

I took a look at the crank as well and there is considerable deteriation(sp) of the crank where it mates against the thrust bearing. Obviously there is considerable play in the crank. I'll measure it later, but I can move it pretty good with a screwdriver. I am getting sick.

 

[EightSecV6]

Here is the other cap

When we use the word indexing, what does that mean?

From the 2nd pic, it looks as if it were punished pretty good as evident by the material transfer to the cap FROM the block.If BOTH engines had thrust issues (which is what it looks like from the pics), your trans/converter is in trouble or not enough clearance between the fw and conv. Alot of foot brake/transbrake action will cause this too, it puts a tremendous load on the thrust. The different color on the bearing looks like it was either caused by the excessive thrust moving it around and causing it to loose the "oil wedge" as the crank should never come in contact with the actual bearing surface.Basically the best way to index the cap is to tap it into place with a deadblow hammer, torque all nuts to 50ft.lb. and then loosen them up. Thrust the crank forward with a dead blow hammer from the rear flange,then thrust is backwards from the snout with a deadblow and then back forward again. Retorque all the nuts (ARP studs) to 105ft.lb. and check the endplay with a dial indicator.

 

[Mad_Trbo]

From the 2nd pic, it looks as if it were punished pretty good as evident by the material transfer to the cap FROM the block.If BOTH engines had thrust issues (which is what it looks like from the pics), your trans/converter is in trouble or not enough clearance between the fw and conv. Alot of foot brake/transbrake action will cause this too, it puts a tremendous load on the thrust. The different color on the bearing looks like it was either caused by the excessive thrust moving it around and causing it to loose the "oil wedge" as the crank should never come in contact with the actual bearing surface.Basically the best way to index the cap is to tap it into place with a deadblow hammer, torque all nuts to 50ft.lb. and then loosen them up. Thrust the crank forward with a dead blow hammer from the rear flange,then thrust is backwards from the snout with a deadblow and then back forward again. Retorque all the nuts (ARP studs) to 105ft.lb. and check the endplay with a dial indicator.

I see, this is close to what I did, but not exactly what I did. I followed the direction of the GM manual

Bolts evenly, then back off one full turn and
torque to specifkation.
1. CENTER MAIN BEARING THRUST FL-A.N GES
2. WOODBLOCK
BUMP SHAFT IN EACH DIRECTION TO
ALIGN THRUST FLANGES OF CENTER MAIN
BEAR IN G.
Figure 30 Seating the Crankshaft Thrust Bearing

(EDIT)



So anyway I am seeing the error of my ways, thanks for all the feedback.

 

[lazaris]

Again, you need to lay the crank in the block with your new bearings but without the thrust cap and measure the end play. Then instsall the thrust cap and remeasure. Other wise you wont know if theres an issue with the billet cap itself..

 

[JoelGN]

Mad TRBO did you examine the top shell of the thrust bearing? Have you found anything that points toward crank thrust surface, improper seating or TC?

 

[Mad_Trbo]

Mad TRBO did you examine the top shell of the thrust bearing? Have you found anything that points toward crank thrust surface, improper seating or TC?

I appreciate the follow up, these last few weeks and days have been somewhat challenging for me. I am leaving a job as CPA / Controller of a fortune five hundred corp to got back to school to chase my passion cars.

I'll start @ NTI of UTI next week, with that I went and got my self a job as a service manager at a local all in one shop. The learning curve has been tremendous in fact my head is pounding now, I know all of this will fade once I get it down.

But I haven't had time to pull the motor. I hope to get this accomplished Sunday, my first day off. Can't wait to learn from what I find.

I'll post back and post pictures when I get it pulled.

 

[Mad_Trbo]

Picture both Thrust bearings

I have included a picture capturing both the top and lower thrust bearing. By the looks of it the car ate through both the coating and the copper coating of the upper bearing.



It has been explained to me that this damage could have been caused by the transmission / torque converter. After looking at the evidence are there still any players out there who feel this way?

Or is this due to an improperly seated thrust bearing, meaning my whack against the crank wasn't hard enough to seat the thrust and the top bearing was seated closer. Or was my torque procedure improper.

Note how the wear isn't smooth, in fact it has less wear near the bearing joints and only on the side facing the back of the engine.

One last question, will I have to get the block hot tanked due to gold flake fragments?

 

[MSDGN]

To seat the thrust bearing you don't have to whack it hard...since the cap isn't torqued down...not supposed to be anyways...all it takes is a few raps with a soft blow hammer...if you had the cap torqued down too tight when it was done that may have been part of the problem...as for the block...I would say yes...tear it down completely and have it tanked...if you don't you may be sorry in a short period of time after it's back together...

 

[Lee Thompson]

Msdgn

Normally I would agree with you untill today. I was looking @ my sons block. It has had billet center caps installed. Once #2 cap was seated with a rubber mallet (no nuts on), I had to use a brass rod to move the cap front to back. It is TIGHT.