Beginner tuning question

[V8minus2]

Hey Guys,

So, I’m new to the TR world and I’m looking for some pro advice! I’m in the process of buying an 86 GN, and I want to make sure I have everything mapped out as far as performance modifications to the car so I do everything in the right order and as money allows

My question is, for computer tuning, how do most people go about actually tuning the parameters such as fuel, spark advance, etc? I’ve seen so many different chips, tools like the scan master, maf translator, etc. But I’ve found no definitive answer anywhere on what hardware you actually change parameters with.

Do you use the scan master, or hook a laptop to the ECM? This is what has me confused, since most people just say they “tuned their car”.
I want to know what type of hardware is needed to tune a TR. I don’t want to run a fast xfi or anything, Just looking for what’s needed to build a good, high 11s regal

Thanks for your help! And I apologize in advance for the "dumb" question:frown: , i've tried searching!

 

[turbojd]

Is the 86 GN stock that your looking at buying? I would buy a good chip such as a Turbo tweak chip, give Eric your cars combination and he will burn you a chip for that combo. Just pop it right in the ecm and you will be amazed how the car idles and performs, and if needed you can adjust fueling parameters through the chip. For a scan tool I would start off with the scanmaster and learn to tune with that and see how far you want to go from there if all your looking for is high 11's.

 

[johnnyttype]

X2 for the turbotweak chip, while your looking at doing a chip so you can tune the car, that is the time to upgrade injectors to 60lbers(Good for high 11's), or 79lbers if you think you might wanna go faster after 11's Then a scanmaster becomes a must have so you can adjust the chip and tune the car...

and then...you get into the realm of alky, turbos, ic's...etc!

if you want, we can make a grocery list for you of go-fast parts and then supporting mods that will make a nice 11's combo! only if you are ready for it though

hth
John

 

[87lightweight]

i was wondering about this also, how do you make the changes with tt chip?

 

[johnnyttype]

i was wondering about this also, how do you make the changes with tt chip?

this link is the steps for adjusting a tt chip. i think thats what you wanted, correct? it allows you to change 1st gear fuel, WOT fueling, 1st-2nd gear ign. timing, and 3rd-4th gear timing.
http://www.turbotweak.com/turbotweakinstructions56.pdf

 

[challengermike]

A scanmaster is used to monitor what is going on with the sensors,same as a scan tool would do.You can not adjust anything with it.But you would use it to watch the parameters when you are making changes to fuel and timing with the chip.

 

[V8minus2]

Thanks for all the replies!

Yes, it's a stock 86', and I never want to put a rollcage in the car, so mid 11's will be the fastest for me. I know I know, you all think i'm crazy and that i'll change my mind. But this is the reason i'm selling my 71' Lemans, it just started to get too annoying for real driving and I want a nice street car.

You've answered my main question for sure. I was just confused on how you could tune your car without a computer! Do they still make hookups for a computer though? I have an older small laptop that would be perfect for this.

Well, not to high-jack my own thread, but I would appreciate any comments on a streetable high-mid 11s TR grocery list! It should be said though that I'm the type of guy who enjoys doing things like porting heads, welding, etc. and not having alot of money, i'll try to do what I can without buying that $900 BOV. So , just remember, I’m poor :biggrin:

I have been reading everything I can find in the last few months and this is what I've come up with:

- Ta-49 or 60 turbo
- 50-60lb injectors
- Some kinda Chip (answered here)
- New fuel pump and hotwire it
- Maybee a duttweiler neck on the intercooler?
- Lt1 MAF with translator?
- K/N type airfilter



.

 

[turbojd]

That set up you have listed is similar to my combo, excellent light to light combo!!

 

[TurboMonte 2]

Thanks for all the replies!

I have been reading everything I can find in the last few months and this is what I've come up with:

- Ta-49 or 60 turbo
- 50-60lb injectors
- Some kinda Chip (answered here)
- New fuel pump and hotwire it
- Maybee a duttweiler neck on the intercooler?
- Lt1 MAF with translator?
- K/N type airfilter



.

Be sure you remember:

- Adj FPR
- Adj WG
- Upgraded exhaust system

 

[johnnyttype]

A scanmaster is used to monitor what is going on with the sensors,same as a scan tool would do.You can not adjust anything with it.But you would use it to watch the parameters when you are making changes to fuel and timing with the chip.

Im not sure if this is what you mean by the last sentence but you have to go through the scanmaster to tune a TTchip, thats what i meant:smile:


My Thoughts:
- Ta-49 or 60 turbo (Go with the 60 or 61 size range)
- 50-60lb injectors (60lbers)
- Some kinda Chip (answered here) (TTchip)
- New fuel pump and hotwire it (Yes)
- Maybee a duttweiler neck on the intercooler? (Yes)
- Lt1 MAF with translator? (Depends on the budget but i would do it!)
- K/N type airfilter (yes)

and then...
-ALKY, ALky, alky... unless your gonna run race gas of some kind, they do make do it yourself kits, but Alky Control's kit is awesome.
-ADj. FPR ("turbomonte 2)
-Adj. wastegate... or thread your own rod.("turbomonte 2)
-Make a dump pipe and skip exhaust if you want to save money.
-Port those heads! Most attention in the bowls and throat are, just port match intake and heads area to the gasket.
-Sticky tires, Mickey Thompsons are good.
-Tune, tune, tune... if you have a laptop you can get a powerlogger so you can log runs but not a necessity. Best When used with Wideband O2!
-CR43ts Delco plugs gapped around .032" or other brand
-A torque converter to match turbo is never a bad idea.
-3" downpipes are nice, there are parts out there to make your own, RJC has them i think.
-mild cam if you would like and replace the stock timing chain!

im sure i missed stuff but others will let ya know! hth

 

[V8minus2]

Thanks for the tips! I thought I spent alot on my 455, I already know i'm going to get in deep with a turbo buick
Ok, here's more of my jibber jabber...

I've heard alky is awesome and it seems preety cheap to build yourself minus the pump...

Is a new converter recommended? I've never driven a car with a higher stall and I don't want it to effect driveability.

On my 455's heads, I did a basic gasket match, smoothed out the casting flash and smoothed out the bowls. Made a big difference. I like doing things like this since it's basically free! I assume it would be good to do the same with the intake, etc...

I've heard the stock wastegate actuators can fail under high boost, is it good to get a heavyduty type?

I should be able to fab up a downpipe with enough time, but it would probably look horrible
I would like to have a full exhaust system so I can have it be quite around town

Is a stock timing chains weak? I hate replacing cams, so if it's not needed, i'll try to stay with the stocker...

 

[johnnyttype]

I've heard alky is awesome and it seems preety cheap to build yourself minus the pump... (It is awesome and there are kits or parts suppliers to make your own)

Is a new converter recommended? I've never driven a car with a higher stall and I don't want it to effect driveability.(Depends on the turbo and if you mind turbo lag...I never noticed any driveability changes with my 2600-2800 stall converter and one of those would prob. be sufficient for a te60 turbo or one of similiar size. 3400 stall is a lot different though )

On my 455's heads, I did a basic gasket match, smoothed out the casting flash and smoothed out the bowls. Made a big difference. I like doing things like this since it's basically free! I assume it would be good to do the same with the intake, etc...(Cool, intake would be a good idea too, i think anything that effectively increases the volume of air in forced induction engines is not a bad thing...but there are always exceptions!)

I've heard the stock wastegate actuators can fail under high boost, is it good to get a heavyduty type?(An adjustable one never hurts, how much boost you want to run?)

Is a stock timing chains weak? I hate replacing cams, so if it's not needed, i'll try to stay with the stocker...(Yes, i believe they are metal cores with nylon/plastic teeth on the gears! They tend to get chewed up or loose teeth.)

 

[87lightweight]

what do you guys prefer for scan tools?
i bought a direct scan and laptop, do i still need a scanmaster?

 

[Evans Ward]

Audible knock detector would be cheap insurance too and could protect your investment. Beauty of the scanmaster is that it is small and doesn't take up much room. Laptop is much bulkier and prone to damage without going to some type of holder/ stand. Both would be beneficial.

 

[johnnyttype]

what do you guys prefer for scan tools?
i bought a direct scan and laptop, do i still need a scanmaster?

another option would be a powerlogger. i broke down and ordered one the other day. cant wait to use it...and actually be able to log runs and tune the car possibly

 

[corsair231]

What everybody has failed to mention is to read, read, and read some more. That is definitely a requirement for the first time turbo Regal owner. You sound like you are doing just that and that's great. If you haven't seen this site:

Turbo Regal Web Site


Go there and enjoy. Some of the data is dated but it is still very good stuff. Look for the spring cleaning list and make sure your car is running right before you start to mod. They also have recipes for different performance levels.

As far as scan tools. You do need one but if you're on a budget or already have one (OTC, Snap-On, etc) you can tune with a hand held. It may be a little more difficult (hard to drive and read at the same time) but if it's got a recording capability then that helps. The bonus is that it is removable and can work on many different types of cars. The Scanmaster is wired into the car and is there all the time so it cannot easily be swapped to another GN and may not work on any other type car with out reprogramming. The plus side is that it is small and unobtrusive but still easily read while on the move.

As far as laptops, there were some old programs such as TurboTuner or Win-aldl that use the factory diagnostic port. They are slower than the newer ones and they tend to be free as far as the software goes (if you can find a good copy) but special cables have to be used. Directscan or Powerlogger requires physical modifications to the factory ecm and although they seem pretty simple, once they are done they are there. These are by far the most informative, fastest updating because they get their information straight from the ecm instead of the slower diagnostic port. (If I'm correct, Powerlogger is the only one that works with a ms 2000+/Vista based os. The others have to have a DOS based os.) Although the program is on the laptop, you don't have to leave the laptop plugged in. You can remove it to have your front seat back for date night. Of course, due to the ecm mods required, it is not easily portable to other cars either. Most tracks will not let you run with a pc plugged up unless you have it in a secured stand.

Hope this helps.



BTW, Welcome to the Dark Side.

 

[V8minus2]

Man, you all are sure helpful on this forum, not like other car forums i've been too before!

Evans Ward: I agree with at least some sort of warning for knock! What do the actual knock gauges show you, timing retard as well?


johnnyttype: (1) I've decided alky is a must in my future! (2) I have seen a lot of people recomend a 2800 stall, just wanted to hear from someone who has driven such a car before and liked it. (3) I would like to just thread the waste gate rod like I’ve seen a lot of people do to save money. As far as boost... I'm obviously the new guy but from everything I've seen ~20 lbs is the key number for such a combo in the mid 11's.

The only reason I would like a powerlogger is so that I can capture data and don't have to be distracted by looking away when I should be concentrating on the road. I also have an old pentium 3, win98 laptop (the kind you could care less if it was stolen out of the car) so I should be ok from the computer aspect.


Corsair231: I’ve been trying to learn all I can and not just jump head first into the “Darkside”
I actually found the website you mentioned and read a lot of info last night; great stuff!

I do not currently have a scan tool, as all the cars I’ve owned have been OBD-1 or were carbureted. But I think the power logger would work well for me, and I don’t plan on having any other cars I need to tune in the near future, in which case a friend might have one I could borrow…


Although I’m a classic Pontiac guy through and through , This Turbo Buick thing is already addicting,:biggrin: and it’s ok, since it’s still in the B-O-P family, so I’m not trading sides in my mind

 

[TurboMonte 2]

Forget your N/A experience w/ the 455!...You're starting from scratch (exc. porting type stuff)

Stall is more determined by turbo/ boost you're running. With stock turbo (even + alky), 2600-2800 stall would be just dandy...

Gasket-matching porting of both intake & exhaust = cool!--Even hogging out a little of the bowl areas = more cool...

Stay away from the HD WG actuator for now--but do purchase a real std duty adj one--ferget about trying to thread/cobble your own "stock one"...

Stock DP Ok for a goal of mid-11's--better off going for a stock loc DuttNeck IC...

A stock cam is fine, as turbo-buicks are all about TQ, & bigger cams just serve to move up the TQ/HP rpm band...

And remember, a PowerLogger will only log what you put into it (all ScanMaster stuff--and a modded SM version is req'd also) and, you must create other inputs for the PL if so desired (boost?-EGT?-WB O2 - A/F ratio? -etc.)

And read-read-read--good luck!