Block Advise - Machine it or boat anchor?

[Cndeh]

After measuring my block with a bore gauge and getting a second opinion from a machine shop, 4 cylinders are severely tapered inward. My block was sleeved in all cylinders by a previous owner and the 4 outer cylinders are in spec until about 2/3rds the way down where they start to taper in greatly. The machinist I went to said he could bring the block back into spec. The engine is at .040 over and at some points the taper is .005 inward but he does not have a torque plate nor did he think one is required. The two center cylinders and main clearances are all good for what ever that's worth.

My question is how best to proceed? Should I order a torque plate, should I let them him do it without a plate (machinist's suggestion) or should I toss the block? I live in the Dominican Republic so my machining options are limited to this shop only.

My goal is to have a reliable stock street engine. Any and all advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

rob

 

[A2000RICH]

A torque plate is a really good idea as it does make a difference when you really start to make a lot of power. If you bore/hone the cylinders with a torque plate they will show very minor variations in size and/or taper when measured after the plates are removed. They do require a little extra work to use and many shops don't use them for that reason. The blocks were not done with a plate when new and they ran just fine. Personally I always use them on blocks that I build. I also will never use a sleeved block. Only once did I build a engine with a sleeve and it taught me a lesson. I know that millions of engines use sleeves and do just fine but as long as I don't have to do it I stay away from it. On the other hand i do not ever scrap the blocks that need sleeves. I stash them away for the time when blocks are more scarce. I would say that you should try to find a better block if possible. If not go with the shop that at least says that you should use plates.

 

[turbo89]

After measuring my block with a bore gauge and getting a second opinion from a machine shop, 4 cylinders are severely tapered inward. My block was sleeved in all cylinders by a previous owner and the 4 outer cylinders are in spec until about 2/3rds the way down where they start to taper in greatly. The machinist I went to said he could bring the block back into spec. The engine is at .040 over and at some points the taper is .005 inward but he does not have a torque plate nor did he think one is required. The two center cylinders and main clearances are all good for what ever that's worth.

My question is how best to proceed? Should I order a torque plate, should I let them him do it without a plate (machinist's suggestion) or should I toss the block? I live in the Dominican Republic so my machining options are limited to this shop only.

My goal is to have a reliable stock street engine. Any and all advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

rob

How hard are you running it ?

 

[Cndeh]

A torque plate is a really good idea as it does make a difference when you really start to make a lot of power. If you bore/hone the cylinders with a torque plate they will show very minor variations in size and/or taper when measured after the plates are removed. They do require a little extra work to use and many shops don't use them for that reason. The blocks were not done with a plate when new and they ran just fine. Personally I always use them on blocks that I build. I also will never use a sleeved block. Only once did I build a engine with a sleeve and it taught me a lesson. I know that millions of engines use sleeves and do just fine but as long as I don't have to do it I stay away from it. On the other hand i do not ever scrap the blocks that need sleeves. I stash them away for the time when blocks are more scarce. I would say that you should try to find a better block if possible. If not go with the shop that at least says that you should use plates.

I'm curious as to what would be the down side of using a sleeved block for a non performance build? The block is all clean and painted so it may make a nice coffee table base. I know there are no blocks available where I live, time to start checking out the for sale section.

Thanks for the advise.

 

[Cndeh]

How hard are you running it ?

I bought someone else's pipe dream. The car came with everything removed from the front of the engine to expose the timing chain. The best I can tell the car hadn't been run since 2010, that was the last valid license tag. I never got to speak to the actual previous owner of the car, he moved to the States and I just dealt with a lawyer.

 

[turbo89]

I'm curious as to what would be the down side of using a sleeved block for a non performance build? The block is all clean and painted so it may make a nice coffee table base. I know there are no blocks available where I live, time to start checking out the for sale section.

Thanks for the advise.

if the sleeve is done right .. NO downside .. I ran a sleeved 109 block that was .030 over with no issues at all .. no torque plate .. no fancy machining ..
I wouldn't be afraid of the sleeve as long as it was done right.... I also wouldn't be afraid of the taper on a stock type build ..

 

[Cndeh]

if the sleeve is done right .. NO downside .. I ran a sleeved 109 block that was .030 over with no issues at all .. no torque plate .. no fancy machining ..
I wouldn't be afraid of the sleeve as long as it was done right.... I also wouldn't be afraid of the taper on a stock type build ..

Well that's good to know that for a stock build I may be able to use what I have. To be honest I have no idea if the sleeves were done right or not. The machinist said they were in good shape. They are all sitting on some meat at the bottom so I dont think there is a chance of them walking out. The taper is bad enough to score the sides of the pistons though. When I first took the engine apart I found it had new cheap NA cast pistons in it. I now know why they were changed.

 

[earlbrown]

Since you're already at .040" and the block tapers inward that's actually a good thing. A good honing machine can remove that and square up your bore without going too far over .040.

Being in the Dominican Republic, buying and getting a torque plate sent to you would most likely cost a FORTUNE. Hell, they're very expensive here in the states already. Since you're not going to be building a max effort race engine the most cost effective path would be to work with the block you already have. I can make your a set of .042" over pistons, (or wherever it comes clean) and get you back on the road, with no problem.

You didn't mention any kind of ring groove at the top of the cylinder so that could be a factor too. What I would do is ask your machinist to tell you the largest dimension on the worst hole. If it'll come clean pretty easily I'd hone all the holes to the size of the worst one and go from there. That'll save the cost of having to bore it too. (way better than boring for sleeves, buying sleeves, then boring the sleeves).

 

[Turbo6inKY]

My question is how best to proceed? Should I order a torque plate, should I let them him do it without a plate (machinist's suggestion) or should I toss the block? I live in the Dominican Republic so my machining options are limited to this shop only.

Do you have Autozone down there? And do they sell crate engines?

Price that. Sure, they get slammed on here because they're not perfect, but if you're just looking for a street engine, it might check all the boxes and come in below all the machine work.

Also, if you're thinking on the torque plate, you can torque the heads and mains to the block and measure the bores from the bottom and see exactly what the distortion is.

 

[Cndeh]

Since you're already at .040" and the block tapers inward that's actually a good thing. A good honing machine can remove that and square up your bore without going too far over .040.

Being in the Dominican Republic, buying and getting a torque plate sent to you would most likely cost a FORTUNE. Hell, they're very expensive here in the states already. Since you're not going to be building a max effort race engine the most cost effective path would be to work with the block you already have. I can make your a set of .042" over pistons, (or wherever it comes clean) and get you back on the road, with no problem.

You didn't mention any kind of ring groove at the top of the cylinder so that could be a factor too. What I would do is ask your machinist to tell you the largest dimension on the worst hole. If it'll come clean pretty easily I'd hone all the holes to the size of the worst one and go from there. That'll save the cost of having to bore it too. (way better than boring for sleeves, buying sleeves, then boring the sleeves).

Thank you for your advise and kind offer. I will take the block back to the machine shop tomorrow and let him have at it. When the shop is finished I will hit you up with the final verdict of what it cleans up to and we can go from there.

Thanks again, it'll most likely be a week before I get the block back.

 

[Cndeh]

Do you have Autozone down there? And do they sell crate engines?

Price that. Sure, they get slammed on here because they're not perfect, but if you're just looking for a street engine, it might check all the boxes and come in below all the machine work.

Also, if you're thinking on the torque plate, you can torque the heads and mains to the block and measure the bores from the bottom and see exactly what the distortion is.

I wish! One day when I am brave enough I will take a video of what an auto parts store down here is like and post it in the funny section here. Its a whole different scene that just cant be put into words, you have to see it in action. Two dozen greasy guys all shouting louder than the next at the poor saps behind the counter.

 

[A2000RICH]

Thank you for your advise and kind offer. I will take the block back to the machine shop tomorrow and let him have at it. When the shop is finished I will hit you up with the final verdict of what it cleans up to and we can go from there.

Thanks again, it'll most likely be a week before I get the block back.

let me give you one last bit of advice. Six years ago Patrick (Slogn) and I built a engine for Bob Bailey ( Mr. TR-6 and Scanmaster fame). Bob provided the block. It had a single sleeve that was done by a machine shop in Detroit. One might think they can sleeve a block in Detroit. We had the block inspected and pressure tested and it seemed fine. Did a "out of car" run in test and all appeared fine. We installed it in the car and did a run around our 5 mile test loop and the engine started leaking coolant around the sleeve at the deck. Pat and I are by no stretch of the imagination novice engine builders and that engine was built right ! It doesn't matter if you are building a stock engine or a 8 second track burner a leak is a leak ! There is more to a sleeve than bore dimensions. Bob came all the way from Detroit to drive his car home and I ended up loaning him one of my GN,s to go back home with. That was my first and last sleeved motor! If i were you I would ask that machine shop if he will guarantee IN WRITING that it will not leak or otherwise have sleeve related problems. RC

 

[earlbrown]

Odd. The shop I 'work' at has sleeved tons of blocks and never had one leak or fail. Mostly diesels so I know they see heat, cylinder pressure and abuse. There's a .125" BBC up there that's got .015 of taper at the top and I'm thinking about putting 8 sleeves in it for my personal use (with a Procharger) in a boat.

What's odd is there's nothing special about the operation. Bore it to .0015" interference, take the sleeve out of the freezer and drive it home with a press, then top it flush with the deck. The end. (then drink beers and make another hamburger press out of the sleeve scrap )


I'm trying to figure out how to sleeve one and have it leak as fast (and obvious) as what you saw. Either not enough press, or the sleeve wasn't driven all the way down to the step before topping it. ...and that I would think would show a blown head gasket when it drops, not a coolant leak. Since you pressure tested the block I would think a cold block would show more than a hot block since the sleeve sees more heat than the water jacket.


If coolant made it up the 'gap' to the deck, That sounds like not enough press fit. But if that were the case it should have made it to the oil pan too. Defiantly odd.

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

I raced a .030 over block a few years back that scored a cylinder when the wrist pin come loose. Sleeved it and it was fine...until another cylinder cracked all the way into the water jacket. Block was unsalvageable as the crack went all the way to the deck.