Cell 15 lock question ?

[Sleeper]

In a chip that I am working on, I put in Carl's cell 15 code patch and set it to trigger @ 50% TPS with a BLM value of 150. I bumped the FP to 47 to start. I noticed that in a DS recording of a run, my O2's sat around 839 during 1st gear(a little fat) and started to drop slightly at the upper rpms. 2nd gear was 830+ and did the same thing. In third and 4th they dropped from 780+ down to 750's. The highest amount of spark retard during the run was 3.8

Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought that the cell lock was to keep the value consistent ?, and by adjusting FP you could lower or raise the 02 #'s.

I made my chip a little fat on purpose and upped the FP, so I could slowly bring it down to get the 02's in the 780+/- range with little knock. I am worried that if I drop the FP I will lean out too much in the higher gears.

Setup is:
2850 lb car
Stock ported and polished turbo @19psi, blue tops, 62mm TB.

I don't know how to post the DS file here (Any ideas?) Let me know if you want to see it and I will E-mail it to you.

Thanks
Paul

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by Sleeper
In a chip that I am working on, I put in Carl's cell 15 code patch and set it to trigger @ 50% TPS with a BLM value of 150. I bumped the FP to 47 to start. I noticed that in a DS recording of a run, my O2's sat around 839 during 1st gear(a little fat) and started to drop slightly at the upper rpms. 2nd gear was 830+ and did the same thing. In third and 4th they dropped from 780+ down to 750's. The highest amount of spark retard during the run was 3.8

Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought that the cell lock was to keep the value consistent ?, and by adjusting FP you could lower or raise the 02 #'s.

I made my chip a little fat on purpose and upped the FP, so I could slowly bring it down to get the 02's in the 780+/- range with little knock. I am worried that if I drop the FP I will lean out too much in the higher gears.

Setup is:
2850 lb car
Stock ported and polished turbo @19psi, blue tops, 62mm TB.

I don't know how to post the DS file here (Any ideas?) Let me know if you want to see it and I will E-mail it to you.

Thanks
Paul

The cell lock is so the ECM doesnt negate FP changes you make. The O2's dropping off indicate your car needed more fuel (or was using more fuel more accurately) and this is why GM wrote the FAPE multiplier in. I played a little with it awhile ago and it can be used, but in SMALL increments. Like .0x's, cuz if you go from like 1.02 to 1.10 it WILL puke black smoke after a short time in PE. Ask me how I know <grin>

You may merely have to add a couple % in PE/RPM at the RPM's where O2's were dropping off.

BTW, setting BLM to 150 at 50% throttle will make the car lazy coming out the hole. Set it higher or use MAF as the trigger. (ASSuming you have that version of Carls patch.)

 

[Sleeper]

Thanks for the info Jim.
I was a little leary of starting out too lean, so thats why I went with the 50% TPS and 150 Maf.

When you say set it higher, what would be a SAFE place to start from? 75%?. (My MAF wasn't pegging 255 and was droping down around 230's+ so that' why I went with the TPS trigger)

I guess that I should take care of the bottom end stuff first before I start messing with the FAPE tables

Paul

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by Sleeper
Thanks for the info Jim.
I was a little leary of starting out too lean, so thats why I went with the 50% TPS and 150 Maf.

When you say set it higher, what would be a SAFE place to start from? 75%?. (My MAF wasn't pegging 255 and was droping down around 230's+ so that' why I went with the TPS trigger)

I guess that I should take care of the bottom end stuff first before I start messing with the FAPE tables

Paul

Try 75%, try 220 on the MAF.

Experiment..experiment..experiment.

 

[Sleeper]

I hear you Jim.
A question on trigger preference. If you us the TPS, it sets the lock as soon as the threshold is reached. Stomp on it and your there. If you use the MAF, a larger time delay is had untill enough air is flowing to set the MAF trigger. Which method do you prefer and why?

Paul

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by Sleeper
I hear you Jim.
A question on trigger preference. If you us the TPS, it sets the lock as soon as the threshold is reached. Stomp on it and your there. If you use the MAF, a larger time delay is had untill enough air is flowing to set the MAF trigger. Which method do you prefer and why?

Paul

Well, if you go by TPS, you can lock it as soon as you come out of a stoplight, which migh cause a rich bog, especially if you whack it to 150.

if you use MAF trigger, the motor has to be at a set load (ie: WOT and over 3500rpm) for the lock to enable

Problem with TPS (and I do use it, but set to 128 as in Carls original lock) is if you use 150, you can get the lock to work during your burnout. Might make it hard to keep the power up.

I say, experiment with it, once you find something that works well, stick to it.

One thing I might mention is I like to let the cell learn with a normal chip, then lock it to the learned value, ie: normal chip, cell 15 learns to 119 (my car as an example) I would then set it to 119 in my lock. This way I know and FP adjustments would vary off my cars natural center and not wind up super rich or lean. Get what I'm saying?

 

[Sleeper]

Jim,
I am trying to kill some of the lag, so I am playing with boost values in 77E, to 784 and set 776 to FF to get a quicker spool out of the hole. I found that when I used the MAF lock, the delay until MAF reached 75 and LV8 hit 160 for boost enrichment and PE was a little long, [Iguess that is relative ] so I went with the TPS trigger to lock it right away. Comparing some DS files I see that the delay before boost hits is a lot shorter. I am just too fat on the bottom end right now and that is also slowing the spool up. [not that the spool is bad , I just want more ]

I hear what your saying about loading up the motor too soon with fuel... but I am wondering if I decrease the lower end of the FAPE table say $566 (4.2sec) by a tiny bit 0x, would that lean out some of the bottom end when the lock first hits?

I went with 150 because my normal cell 15 is around 141+/- 2 and I was concerned about popping some head gaskets if I started out to lean.

On the other hand I guess I could also lower the 150 to 141 to lean out the bottom end and do as you mentioned earlier and add a bit to the upper FAPE.

Reality check... am I way off here and going about things bass ackwards?

Paul

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by Sleeper
Jim,
I am trying to kill some of the lag, so I am playing with boost values in 77E, to 784 and set 776 to FF to get a quicker spool out of the hole. I found that when I used the MAF lock, the delay until MAF reached 75 and LV8 hit 160 for boost enrichment and PE was a little long, [Iguess that is relative ] so I went with the TPS trigger to lock it right away. Comparing some DS files I see that the delay before boost hits is a lot shorter. I am just too fat on the bottom end right now and that is also slowing the spool up. [not that the spool is bad , I just want more ]

I hear what your saying about loading up the motor too soon with fuel... but I am wondering if I decrease the lower end of the FAPE table say $566 (4.2sec) by a tiny bit 0x, would that lean out some of the bottom end when the lock first hits?

I went with 150 because my normal cell 15 is around 141+/- 2 and I was concerned about popping some head gaskets if I started out to lean.

On the other hand I guess I could also lower the 150 to 141 to lean out the bottom end and do as you mentioned earlier and add a bit to the upper FAPE.

Reality check... am I way off here and going about things bass ackwards?

Paul

Go to negative values on the PE/RPM table prior to stall RPM and see if that helps. What size injectors are you using and a little background on your combo might help us to help you as to where to start. With 50's I'm currently using like -12, -9, -4, 3, 10, 18, 24, 30, 42 kinda curves for a car without much in the way of airflow mods. Also timing can play in the picture.

 

[Sleeper]

Originally posted by TurboJim


Go to negative values on the PE/RPM table prior to stall RPM and see if that helps. What size injectors are you using and a little background on your combo might help us to help you as to where to start. With 50's I'm currently using like -12, -9, -4, 3, 10, 18, 24, 30, 42 kinda curves for a car without much in the way of airflow mods. Also timing can play in the picture.

Basic mods are listed in my 1st post. Just to add, I am also using the stock D5 converter, stock intercooler.

Paul

 

[Sleeper]

ttt

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by TurboJim


Go to negative values on the PE/RPM table prior to stall RPM and see if that helps. What size injectors are you using and a little background on your combo might help us to help you as to where to start. With 50's I'm currently using like -12, -9, -4, 3, 10, 18, 24, 30, 42 kinda curves for a car without much in the way of airflow mods. Also timing can play in the picture.

Good idea Jim. In my chips I set the PE/RPM trims to -19% all the way up through 3200, 0 at 4,000 and on up from there.
LIke:
-19%
-19%
-19%
-19%
0%
27%
32%
49%

Personally, I prefer to 0 out the FAPE table (1.00) in all cells, simply because time is to nebulous. I much prefer tweaking the PE/RPM, and on occasions the PE/TPS tables.

 

[Sleeper]

Thanks Dave
I am ASSuming that this is your curve for 50's. I imagine for blue tops it will be a bit milder. I am interested in zeroing out the FAPE table and tweaking the PE/RPM tables as you mentioned. Is there a connection in how much I take out of the FAPE, ie. 1.19 to 1.00 to how much I put back in in the PE/RPM to bring it back to a safe starting point?
I need a base line to start from if I zero out the FAPE table, so I don't lean out too much to start. (I know Jim had mentioned before that changing as little as 0.0x can make a big difference, so as you can understand I am on the cautious side)

Paul

 

[TurboDave]

Sleeper, here's a suggestion:
Here's the values in my "best" blue top chip scheme for FAPE, PE/RPM, and PE/TPS, this is for a stock torque converter, and TA49 turbo/ blue tops.

0.95
0.98
1.00
1.06
1.13
1.16
1.19
1.22
1.25

-19%
-19%
0%
2%
7%
14%
16%
19%

0%
0%
3%
8%
10%
12%
14%
16%
17%


As you can see, I didn't zero the FAPE table, so play it save, and leave yours as is, and try these figures if your setup is moderately close to what I stated above.

 

[Sleeper]

Thanks Dave

When I get some time this week, I will cut a new chip with those specs and tell you how it goes.

BTW
How much boost were you running, was it on pump gas, and were you using the cell 15 lock with that setup?

Paul

 

[TurboDave]

Not much boost, 17 in 1st and 2nd, and 15 in 3rd, it is afterall, a street chip. That particular chip probably didn't have a cell 15 lock.

 

[Sleeper]

Thanks for the info Dave.

Paul

 

[Sleeper]

Dave
What boost scaler are you using for 4th gear? I am ASSuming that you are using 88% for 3rd.

Paul

 

[Sleeper]

Dave
Are you using the stock timing tables?
4th gear boost scaler?

Paul

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Sleeper
Dave
What boost scaler are you using for 4th gear? I am ASSuming that you are using 88% for 3rd.

Paul

Ahhh, if memory serves (and it usually doesn't at my age), I use 88% for 3rd, and 78% for 4th.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Sleeper
Dave
Are you using the stock timing tables?
4th gear boost scaler?

Paul

NOOOOO! stock timing tables are way too aggresive!
4th gear scaler is 78%.

But I'm using the BstC Boost Command controller now, so the chip isn't controlling boost any longer.