Cheap fluid injection...

[Freddie's Buick]

This is about the cheapest method I've found to inject water/alcohol into our carbed turbo cars. It even saves a liitle gas according to the EPA. But the EPA doesn't like the emissions. The FTC report link I attached also confirms that it does work, (gas saving gadgets with one asterik), but the FTC adds that using this mod may be considered tampering. (LOL! All you guys with window washer sprayers have been doing this for some time).

In fact, this idea is better than a WW sprayer or that expensive pump from Northern Tools and the expensive nozzles. The key word is CHEAP!! No expensive parts to buy or fabricate and no electronics.

This really is a simple idea. Once boost kicks in the pressured airstream goes thru 28 and shoots into 22. The nozzle is a simple design just like a carb venturi/power valve. Once the pressured air passes thru the nozzle it creates a suction that pulls the fluid thru 26 that is attached to a fluid container. Both lines have a check valve.

The more boost, the more the pressure and the fine atomized mix sprays into the carb. The beauty of this is that spraying only happens when load requires it. It's all governed by the turbo. Plus, the atomized mix won't hurt the turbo impellers and the end result is cheap easy power!! Little, or no detonation.

Carbed turbo dudes looking into alchy or water injection should not overlook this idea. It's cheap, simple and do-able. I'm changing my plans with the big pump and gonna give this one a try.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut10.pdf

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/pdfs/patent_id/4411224.html

 

[dr_frankenstein]

very interesting........

this is the kind of stuff i do see alot with the older aftermarket drawthru intakes. particularly with Rajay and Shelby/Spearco units of late 60's fame.

Looks like something that would work relatively well!

I might have to investigate this! Thanks Freddie!

A.j.

 

[WarWagon]

Lol this is cool.
I've made a system like this at home years ago from stuff just around the garage for my brothers '65 Factory turbocharged Corvair. EASY!! I used a "Sureshot" jet and nozzle threadlocked to a brass 90* bulkhead fitting into the side of the intake tube after the sidedraft carb and then flared brakeline to a checkvalve then another brass fitting threadlocked into the side of a used aluminum AC dryer canister from a large industrial AC unit. That canister then was filled with your choice of poison(methanol, ethanol, water, nitro, etc) then capped back off. Then another checkvalve and then plumbed into the turbo. Instant injection powered by boost. Helped the Corvair's flat six out a good deal.

 

[Freddie's Buick]

Darn it I can't edit it, (too late), .

For the sake of clarity I erred with the FTC thing. It's not with patent 4411224 that minumal fuel savings were documented. It's with patent 3987774, (Waag-injection sytem). Documented or not I think it's feasible that it would save fuel in some way. Too bad EPA never got around to testing it.

Anyway, this ancient technology is a lot of fun on these turbo-carbed cars. :biggrin: One mystery I stumbled upon was how much anti-detonant to fuel. This started back with the 61-63 Olds turbo Jetfire. What I've found to be a good number during my googling is 95% gas and 5% water/alcohol, (of the distilled type water and pure Isopropyl alcohol of the highest percentile one can find). Walmart sells a 91%....cost me a little less then a dollar.

Another mystery I have'nt found answers to is what size orifice on the nozzle on the above patent? I think maybe .030??? Any ideas Doc?

Another research I did led me to the Edelbrock VaraJection, (popular with the motor home Bozo's). This documented first class patented water injection kit from the 80's was a technogy killed by petty lawsuits. Many an old timer swore that this thing was awesome. It's delivery aparatus was signaled by RPM's and a MAPS.

All and all P. Goodman's simple aparatus I previously wrote about above fits my fancy best. It's real cheap@!!! And even a retard like me can figure it out.

 

[b4black]

IMHO.....

I've seen this before. I think this is an interesting idea that unfortauntely won't translate well to a functioning system. I don't think there will be enough air pressure/volume to draw enough water/alcohol into the intake. Think about a how hard your air compressor blows at 10-15 psi.

And remember, that will not be air, but an air fuel mixture near stoiciometric.

To add a WW system to a carb turbo doesn't take much. Both system need a tank and a nozzle. The washer pump is dirt cheap at the junk yard. All the electrical is already there (the boost light switches, which are adjustable).

The WW pumps puts out ~40 psi. That going thru a tiny orifice gives the very fine mist needed to not erode the impellar blades. But several different size nozzles and the system is tunable. You realy don't want water flowing at 1 psi or 5 psi. You really just want it at high boost.

Give it a try. It would be cool if it works well.

 

[charlief1]

Glad I decided to take a look at the forum before I go back to bed. This is the same idea that is used for some air powered cleaners and sandblasters. It works well but I have to agree with Rich about the volume, but, if you use a larger nozle on the alky you should be able to suck out more than you need. Very simple and very effective for a simple system.

 

[Freddie's Buick]

Yeah that's another variable I was scratching my head over.....volume..how much? This invention was a twist on his original invention which used the A.I.R. compressor as the the source.

http://books.google.com/books?id=scDqNaEhDEgC&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq=Pat+Goodman+on+Popular+Science&source=bl&ots=TsJZhC9CHE&sig=k0JKXU8ymuzJW5viKB4qcjhM7SU&hl=en&ei=zZ_8StXzBMn-nAeM4Z2LBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I think that the Popular Science article mentions something about a minumum of 2-1/2 PSI for misting. (I'm not sure on this I have'nt had time to read the full article).

One would think that using a near stoiciometric mix with the water/alcohol makes for a finer blend at atomization.

And as I wrote before, this won't happen until compressor boosting starts, (whatever PSI that may be....hopefully not 5 PSI ). The check valve prevents suction at the compressor side at no boost operation. That assures no mix during non-boost operation.

 

[Freddie's Buick]

.... if you use a larger nozle on the alky you should be able to suck out more than you need. Very simple and very effective for a simple system.

Doing a little more reading and it turns out that the key componant in Goodman's idea is the nozzle. Think how a carburator works and makes the fuel mixuture, (venturi principle). It's all in the restrictions and orifice openings as air passes over them. Same concept with the Goodman nozzle I think. To mist up at those low pressures is possilbe. Fuel injection uses pressures of 10-PSI on up.

Heck I saw my Q-jet do this on the secondaries thru the pick up tubes as the butterfly opened up. RPM"s somewere around 2200.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

lmao

olskool popular science!

how cool

A.j.

 

[charlief1]

Doing a little more reading and it turns out that the key componant in Goodman's idea is the nozzle. Think how a carburator works and makes the fuel mixuture, (venturi principle). It's all in the restrictions and orifice openings as air passes over them. Same concept with the Goodman nozzle I think. To mist up at those low pressures is possilbe. Fuel injection uses pressures of 10-PSI on up.

Heck I saw my Q-jet do this on the secondaries thru the pick up tubes as the butterfly opened up. RPM"s somewere around 2200.

lmao

olskool popular science!

how cool

A.j.

This is basic physics guys. Take a steel line and put it into a glass filled with water. Take a blow gun and spray it over the top of the line at a 90 degree angle. It will suck the water out and spray it in the direction you point it. It would be great to use a regulator so you could see how low a pressure you can get the water to come out in a mist. Vary the size of the line to see how little or how much you can suck out to the glass and at what rate. This is something we did in junior high science calss as well as the shop teacher keeping us on our toes if we got a little rowdy.:biggrin: Never thought about it being used for this application though.