Coolingmist/Devil's Own h2o/meth
- Thread starter dees75z
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I'd just do a DIY kit.. hell a nozzle and a pump and things are flying !! 
hmmm things "could " be the motor coming apart 
MAYBE stay with a kit that is tried and true to Buicks 
Think the guy is from the south somewhere ... hmmmm let me think ... you can try this one 
Alkycontrol
8401-A 9th Street North
St. Petersburg FL 33702
727-570-9999
hmmm things "could " be the motor coming apart MAYBE stay with a kit that is tried and true to Buicks Think the guy is from the south somewhere ... hmmmm let me think ... you can try this one Alkycontrol
8401-A 9th Street North
St. Petersburg FL 33702
727-570-9999
WWW.ALKYCONTROL.COM and TurboTweak Home go hand in hand!!!! alky is great because of its awesome cooling effect as well as octane and it is clear and clean.
Are you guys on Julio's payroll? You should be.
Alky kits are not rocket science. Plenty of kits out there will work just fine. With wideband WOT closed loop (like what the maft pro and gen II will do) you don't even really need a progressive kit.
I suggest going on other forums and asking this question because you probably won't get straight answers here. The main problem I would be concerned with is pump leakage. Every pump I have had (3) eventually leaked. You might have to go in and do some homegrown mods to seal the pump depending on what kind of pump the kit you use has and what kind of modifications they do to it.
Alky kits are not rocket science. Plenty of kits out there will work just fine. With wideband WOT closed loop (like what the maft pro and gen II will do) you don't even really need a progressive kit.
I suggest going on other forums and asking this question because you probably won't get straight answers here. The main problem I would be concerned with is pump leakage. Every pump I have had (3) eventually leaked. You might have to go in and do some homegrown mods to seal the pump depending on what kind of pump the kit you use has and what kind of modifications they do to it.
nobody is bashing anyone we are just trying to help. just trying to steer a newbee with a stock car in the right direction!!! diy kits are nice for a budget and if you know what you are doing but on the other hand they can also be your enemy if not up to par. spending thousands on a car to race and then pinching pennys to tune it for high boost is crazy. those few bucks can cost you big and i know a new kit from razor or devils and coolmist can also go bad out of the box but these are kits that are put together for these cars. i myself prefer razors for the outstanding customer support and well thought and layed out instructions. i have once yet to see a bashing of anykind for julio but the others i have read plenty to stay away. TOO EACH HIS OWN!!!!
well try a DIY kit
Do you or "melissa" even know how the kit works from a technical perspective? I do. And no, I don't have a diy kit.. but every kit sold was once someones DIY kit. For those of us that know what we are doing, DIY stuff can many times be more effective than stuff you can purchase.
How often is your car beat on (the one you claim is your daughter's)?
I think a lot of people don't encounter the deficiencies with their kits because they don't push the reliability boundaries of said kits.
Running a 9 sec pass once every couple months off the trailer is nothing compared to day in and out street driving and racing at the ragged edge of a given tune.
Either come up with some technical merits for whatever kit you want to support or customer service merits..
Bandwagon approach doesn't speak in support of either. You have to also understand that they can be mutually exclusive... just because someone has a great kit technically speaking doesn't mean they have good customer service, and vice versa.
So I challenge you, any of you, to tell the poster why whatever kit you support is better based upon technical merit or customer service... please do not imply that one signifies the other.
My personal opinion.. I want something that works the first time, every time, all the time. That way I won't need to deal with customer service.
There are some technological improvements to cover engineering deficiencies in some kits out there and these might be a good choice for you. But as with any engineering evolution, there are many ways to skin a cat and a design deficiency in one area can many times be compensated for in another area. This is why I say a non progressive kit can work very well in conjunction with closed loop WOT engine management.
In my case, I can speak for the ability to cover a lot of problems with judicious engine management tuning.
don't know anything about Alky kits 
I don't HAVE to learn every little thing about them .. thats why I PAID for a kit I bet Melissa's car is driven way more than yours Oh we trailer the car to meets that are over 5/6 hours away ... when we get down there the car is driven everywhere . ok get back to "your" idea of a paint job :biggrin: Mostly everything in life is simple IF you want to take the time to "learn" it
dees75z you can make your own set up ..may have to learn buy your mistakes though
I don't HAVE to learn every little thing about them .. thats why I PAID for a kit I bet Melissa's car is driven way more than yours Oh we trailer the car to meets that are over 5/6 hours away ... when we get down there the car is driven everywhere . ok get back to "your" idea of a paint job :biggrin: Mostly everything in life is simple IF you want to take the time to "learn" it dees75z you can make your own set up ..may have to learn buy your mistakes though
don't know anything about Alky kits
dees75z you can make your own set up ..may have to learn buy your mistakes though
Ok cool, so you admitted you really don't know about the technical merits of the various kits. Case closed.
btw, my car has never seen a trailer and was my daily driver for 3 years with close to the same tune it has now.
ciao
scot w.
GNSperformance.com
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
- Messages
- 8,810
Straight Methanol the Only way to go!
1). The Coolingmist / Devilsown are Methanol / water mix kits that don't have a pump that can be used with Pure Methanol. Meaning you won't get the full benifits of Pure Methanol. meaning (most boost & most timing).
2). Here is a "Temps Facts" comparison of the Cooling effects using some of the fluids being used today in other kits.
Water Only results: Boiling Point = 212*F / No Flash Point!
Windshield Washer Fluid / Water = 50/50 Mix
Results: Boiling Point = 180*F / Flash Point = 82*F
Straight Methanol results: = Boiling Point: = 147*F / Flash Point = 51*F
** It is clear that "Straight Methanol" Will Evaporate the quickest ( Thus leaving corrosion out of question! ) and will do the best in cooling your intake temps and will allow you to run the most boost and timing over the other fluids. Though the straight methanol will require just alittle more tunning seeing it's a fuel, running straight methanol does alot of things over the other fluids.
3). Methanol/Water mix = No noticable differance in injector duty cycle..
4). Straight Methanol has an octane rating of 122 octane, now if it's mixed with water 50/50 you now have 61 octane. What would you rather have?
5). Straight Methanol lowers your injector duty cycle by 10-15% / Methanol/water mix practically nothing!
6). When selling a methanol/water mix kit.
**** 1) The seller sells the customer a kit that really don't need much tuning at all due to the 50% water mix= 61 octane. (Just add a small amount of timing and wala!) Done.
**** 2). The seller can sell a kit without worry of blowing peoples engines cause they don't do much with 50/50 mix!
7). The buyer that buys a Methanol/Water mix kit:
The buyer reads all this hype about how well those kits work and when they take there kit to be installed & tuned, all that the tuner really does is add very little timing and a couple lbs of boost and they think thats great untill they really want to turn the boost up and figure out it can't be done unless you went with more methanol!!
*Note: Methanol/water is only allowing you HALF the benifits of a kit thats designed for Straight Methanol. And that's the Big picture!
Hope this helps!
Scot w.
Dee, Your not being bashed at all bud! these people are simply telling you what has worked the best for our cars and I'll tell you WHY.
1). The Coolingmist / Devilsown are Methanol / water mix kits that don't have a pump that can be used with Pure Methanol. Meaning you won't get the full benifits of Pure Methanol. meaning (most boost & most timing).
2). Here is a "Temps Facts" comparison of the Cooling effects using some of the fluids being used today in other kits.
Water Only results: Boiling Point = 212*F / No Flash Point!
Windshield Washer Fluid / Water = 50/50 Mix
Results: Boiling Point = 180*F / Flash Point = 82*F
Straight Methanol results: = Boiling Point: = 147*F / Flash Point = 51*F
** It is clear that "Straight Methanol" Will Evaporate the quickest ( Thus leaving corrosion out of question! ) and will do the best in cooling your intake temps and will allow you to run the most boost and timing over the other fluids. Though the straight methanol will require just alittle more tunning seeing it's a fuel, running straight methanol does alot of things over the other fluids.
3). Methanol/Water mix = No noticable differance in injector duty cycle..
4). Straight Methanol has an octane rating of 122 octane, now if it's mixed with water 50/50 you now have 61 octane. What would you rather have?
5). Straight Methanol lowers your injector duty cycle by 10-15% / Methanol/water mix practically nothing!
6). When selling a methanol/water mix kit.
**** 1) The seller sells the customer a kit that really don't need much tuning at all due to the 50% water mix= 61 octane. (Just add a small amount of timing and wala!) Done.
**** 2). The seller can sell a kit without worry of blowing peoples engines cause they don't do much with 50/50 mix!
7). The buyer that buys a Methanol/Water mix kit:
The buyer reads all this hype about how well those kits work and when they take there kit to be installed & tuned, all that the tuner really does is add very little timing and a couple lbs of boost and they think thats great untill they really want to turn the boost up and figure out it can't be done unless you went with more methanol!!
*Note: Methanol/water is only allowing you HALF the benifits of a kit thats designed for Straight Methanol. And that's the Big picture!
Hope this helps!
Scot w.
Thanks, Pablo I was just looking fo ra cheap alternative like discussed. I really didn't want to get anything started between people on here, lol. So can somone give me an example why Alky is better than a water meth kit?? When say Alky do you mean Methanol, what type of alcohol. i am a newbie and I don't want to make any mistakes on making a choice as to what I want to do. This is the only thing that I am "up in the air" about. I guess I can cut corners on other things to be able to afford a Razors kit. I just am confused!
hahahahaha... wellllll we have had a fleet of Buick DRIVERS since 1986 ..In the beginning we had a summer and a winter fleet !! great cars in the snow
.. I think we have daily driven a little more than you ever dreamed of Ever driven a Stage 2 WE4 in the snow ??? :biggrin: Oh Melissa ran mid 11s since the mid 90's .. Guess it was a good street tune ok back to the Alky thread :biggrin: ....
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dees75Z... we ran meth with water .. didn't work as good as straight meth .. at the drags car ran a 9.8s..... straight meth 9.6s @ 140+ .. Oh ya there are a LOT of DIY kits out there . "I" just choose to be lazy :biggrin:
Alky is just a slang term for any kind of alcohol. Methanol, Ethanol, Isopropyl are all alcohols. You will see the term "denatured alcohol" thrown around as well and that is just ethanol with something thrown in to render it unfit for drinking. Ethanol is the same alcohol in alcoholic beverages.
Running straight methanol is preferable in turbo buicks for a number of reasons.
Its relatively cheap and widely available
It has a high octane rating (on par with other alcohols)
It has a higher latent heat than other alcohols (this is the quality of a substance that is measured by how much heat it pulls from something when it changes state. I.e. when alcohol evaporates from your finger it makes it cold. Methanol is the coldest of the alcohols)
It has a very rich stoichiometric air fuel ratio (this allows you to run a whole lot of methanol, more so than ethanol and much more than isopropyl)
It has more specific energy than any of the other alcohols (very simply; specific energy is a measure of how much power is produced at a given air fuel ratio. Methanol at optimum AFR produces more power than all of the other alcohols and gasoline)
Water mixed with any alcohol was what WWII fighter planes used to run. They did this for a few reasons, first, methanol was relatively expensive and harder to get at the front than water.
Second, methanol has a lower latent heat than water. Water when turned to steam in the combustion chamber takes a LOT more heat away from the chamber than methanol. This was very important in a wwII fighter plane as the majority were air cooled and overheating was a major problem.
Alcohol was mixed with the water to prevent freezing of the water tank at high altitudes and also because it provided better charge cooling to compensate for increased supercharger boost levels.
In our case, water isn't really effective for our engines because we aren't running them at steady state WOT and we have water cooling systems. Many WWII aircraft did run stead at WOT and were air cooled. We also don't have a problem getting alcohol. Alcohol releases more energy than an alcohol/water mix. So it not only allows you to run more boost, but contributes more power in the process.
In the case of a kit claiming to be methanol compatible or not methanol compatible I would question the manufacturers as to what makes their kit methanol compatible or what doesn't make it compatible. The difference could be as simple as what kind of return rate the manufacturer is willing to deal with. Any kit will run on methanol.. the question is for how long and why.
My suggestion is to look at what everyone has to offer, see what they claim, and then compare prices. Like I said above.. this is not rocket science. Alcohol injection has been around since the late 1930s.
Guys I REALLY appreciate all the information and I think that you guys have "steered" me in the right direction.I am going to get to the looking I may end up getting a Razors kit, but I am going to see what else there is out there. Also, didn't someone say that a progressive kit was not needed. I figured as the duty cycle on the injector went up you would want the methanol to "ramp up" as well??
progressive is alot easier to tune as it will increase alky as needed and it will not cause a MAJOR BOG when the alky kicks in.
