Cutting Out At ~14 PSI Boost - Suspect Fuel Pump

[Terbro]

Oh, and I've got an buddy from a California TR car club sending/loaning me a coil pack tester. I believe it's on the way. I'll test the integrity of that too. If it's not sweet, I may have to eventually spring for the TR6 ignition.

 

[626gn]

Oh, and I've got an buddy from a California TR car club sending/loaning me a coil pack tester. I believe it's on the way. I'll test the integrity of that too. If it's not sweet, I may have to eventually spring for the TR6 ignition.

Note on the coil pack tester. Assuming its the Caspers one. If your ignition module is not a 1st or 2nd generation AC Delco it may not test correctly. Even at that, I just had a 1st gen AC Delco module and Highway Stars coil pack test good on my car but it really wasn't. When I switched them out with a known good module and coil pack the car ran like a champ. Still, having the Caspers tester handy is better than nothing and I wouldn't get rid of mine as long as I'm running the original modules.

A spare ignition module and coil pack are something every Turbo Buick owner should have, imo. If you don't switch over to the TR6, I would buy a spare anyway. It's good to have when troubleshooting to rule it out.

Sounds like you're at least headed in the right direction with your troubles though. Your persistence will pay off in the end

 

[Pronto]

You can use a dial indicator to measure the lift. You can use this to find duration etc if you want to spend on a tool. http://www.altronicsinc.com/degree-wheel/digicam-digital-engine-degree-wheel-1.html

 

[turbo89]

I'll go tomorrow to the Speed Shop and have the springs tested. And is there a way to have them test lift to verify what cam I have? Shortly after the motor was assembled, I asked Nick what cam he had put in, and he wasn't sure. He thought he had put in (or had put in; I'm not clear in how much work he actually did himself) a 206/206 flat tappet, but was unsure. So, I'd like to verify what cam I have, if that's possible by rotating the crank and measuring lift. Can such a thing be done at the top of the heads? 'Cause tomorrow would be the time if so.

Geez this is starting to be like comedy hour .. there is another guy on another thread that spent 17K on a motor and got the SBC version of the Turbo Buick .. you spent $8500 and don't even know what parts the builder did or didn't put in .... at this point not that means anything but on your receipt it doesn't give a cam part number ??

Scratch that .. your right .. short of measuring the lobe lift with a dial indicator .. DONT ASSUME ANYTHING here .. check the lobe lift .. and check the springs ..

What a cluster F#@#% !!!

 

[Terbro]

Geez this is starting to be like comedy hour .. there is another guy on another thread that spent 17K on a motor and got the SBC version of the Turbo Buick .. you spent $8500 and don't even know what parts the builder did or didn't put in .... at this point not that means anything but on your receipt it doesn't give a cam part number ??

Scratch that .. your right .. short of measuring the lobe lift with a dial indicator .. DONT ASSUME ANYTHING here .. check the lobe lift .. and check the springs ..

What a cluster F#@#% !!!

Sigh...my endoscope just came in. I just posted another thread, but it's looking to me like cast piston city. I'm reserving my comments until it's official...maybe you can tell me by this pic. It's grainy, because it's a photo of the screen of the camera (can't figure out how to take a photo with the endoscope yet, so I improvised). But does that look like a forged piston to you? Not me.

I went by numerous positive referrals on this website for Nick Micale, and now it's virtually confirmed - he's a total crook. As soon as this piston is confirmed to be cast, I'll be posting the full story in the Feedback section...and as I said before, it's a whopper. I caught him in quite a few lies, but it's much more than that - he's a THIEF. I now seriously doubt I have a $700 forged crank, and will be $500 I don't have ported heads. The $10 endoscope was a good call. I can run it right through the throttle body into the intake on the heads to see if the heads were ported, right?

To respond to your first part...no, it only says "new cam", but on the phone, he's talking about a great street cam, and when I asked him what it was...then he started getting vague. He went on to tell me that the block would be decked, the motor would be balanced, and all the cylinders aligned (whatever the term is...blueprinted?). This was the difference from his $1,500 basic rebuild to the $3K rebuild ("REBUILD 109 ENGINE -FORGED PISTONS, NEW CAM"), not including the UP GRADE HEADS W/NEW VALVES, PORT WORK - $325. So no, no part numbers, and when I asked him about the cam, he couldn't remember...thought it was a 206/206 flat tappet. Whenever I'd ask him about the port work, he never wanted to talk about it, which got me very suspicious at the time.

So you're advice of not assuming anything at this point is already in play, hence the endoscope. When I brought it home and discovered my allegedly $1,800 rebuilt trans (which I took his word on that it needed rebuilding in the first place; had to, because the car wasn't running when I bought it and then shipped it to him) had no 2nd gear, was leaking like a sieve, removed the pan, discovered a ton of black debris, shipped it back, talked to his trans builder, and eventually learned that he tried to just put in another trans that he thought was in working condition...ALL FAITH WAS LOST IN NICK MICALE. But I even lost faith on day 1 when he got the car. He tried to claim the block was cracked when he got it, and sent photos. I eventually caught him in that lie, being that all the oil would've drained out. The car left here without a drop of oil leaking, and I had just been looking right at the spot where there was a chunk of block missing the day before it shipped. He eventually admitted that it cracked when he ran the motor.

But, before I go into the full story, I'll get back on track, and leave that story for the Feedback section. I'll post the link here once I post it.

Anyway...what do you think about that piston? Looks cast to me.

 

[turbo89]

Sigh...my endoscope just came in. I just posted another thread, but it's looking to me like cast piston city. I'm reserving my comments until it's official...maybe you can tell me by this pic. It's grainy, because it's a photo of the screen of the camera (can't figure out how to take a photo with the endoscope yet, so I improvised). But does that look like a forged piston to you? Not me.

I went by numerous positive referrals on this website for Nick Micale, and now it's virtually confirmed - he's a total crook. As soon as this piston is confirmed to be cast, I'll be posting the full story in the Feedback section...and as I said before, it's a whopper. I caught him in quite a few lies, but it's much more than that - he's a THIEF. I now seriously doubt I have a $700 forged crank, and will be $500 I don't have ported heads. The $10 endoscope was a good call. I can run it right through the throttle body into the intake on the heads to see if the heads were ported, right?

To respond to your first part...no, it only says "new cam", but on the phone, he's talking about a great street cam, and when I asked him what it was...then he started getting vague. He went on to tell me that the block would be decked, the motor would be balanced, and all the cylinders aligned (whatever the term is...blueprinted?). This was the difference from his $1,500 basic rebuild to the $3K rebuild ("REBUILD 109 ENGINE -FORGED PISTONS, NEW CAM"), not including the UP GRADE HEADS W/NEW VALVES, PORT WORK - $325. So no, no part numbers, and when I asked him about the cam, he couldn't remember...thought it was a 206/206 flat tappet. Whenever I'd ask him about the port work, he never wanted to talk about it, which got me very suspicious at the time.

So you're advice of not assuming anything at this point is already in play, hence the endoscope. When I brought it home and discovered my allegedly $1,800 rebuilt trans (which I took his word on that it needed rebuilding in the first place; had to, because the car wasn't running when I bought it and then shipped it to him) had no 2nd gear, was leaking like a sieve, removed the pan, discovered a ton of black debris, shipped it back, talked to his trans builder, and eventually learned that he tried to just put in another trans that he thought was in working condition...ALL FAITH WAS LOST IN NICK MICALE. But I even lost faith on day 1 when he got the car. He tried to claim the block was cracked when he got it, and sent photos. I eventually caught him in that lie, being that all the oil would've drained out. The car left here without a drop of oil leaking, and I had just been looking right at the spot where there was a chunk of block missing the day before it shipped. He eventually admitted that it cracked when he ran the motor.

But, before I go into the full story, I'll get back on track, and leave that story for the Feedback section. I'll post the link here once I post it.

Anyway...what do you think about that piston? Looks cast to me.

I really can't tell from that picture .. its hard to tell ..

But I know what I would do at this point .. but I also know that you just want to get your car done and running the way its supposed to .. but my fear here is that
if you start turning it up ASSUMING you have parts you really don't .. we are gonna make a quick mess of the motor you have .
We are going to waste more time as things unravel further and further ..

Where are you located again ?

 

[Terbro]

I really can't tell from that picture .. its hard to tell ..

But I know what I would do at this point .. but I also know that you just want to get your car done and running the way its supposed to .. but my fear here is that
if you start turning it up ASSUMING you have parts you really don't .. we are gonna make a quick mess of the motor you have .
We are going to waste more time as things unravel further and further ..

Where are you located again ?

There's a guy on this thread sounds confident, but I'm awaiting to get his reply as to his level of confidence. He says they're Speed Pro hypereutectic...he used to have them. http://turbobuick.com/threads/what-...tning-bolt-stamp-see-pic.439369/#post-3655051

Please - tell me what you would do? Before you answer, I just put the scope down the TB and did my best to check out the heads (see pics). As far as I can tell, no port work. I'm not one bit surprised, because while our cars are fast, and I've got a lot of bolt-on upgrades, I've owned enough TR's to get the sense that the heads didn't feel ported. It's not "ported heads" fast. I wouldn't expect it to compare to my 4th GN, which had GN1's, but that car was a MONSTER (stock bottom end, and a 212/212 cam) and bolt-ons This one feels like - a stock engine, with an FMIC, 3" DP, exhaust bigger turbo, and chip. I don't even feel a cam! So what would you do?

Last to check is the forged crank, which was $700. Nick said it required a steel balance ($290), and that is on the car...but that could be just because it's visible.

I'm in Fountain, CO.

And you're point is an excellent one. If I don't have the internals I asked for, how much can I push this motor? I'll tell you right now, I'm in no danger of hitting 500 hp just yet. My 4th GN made over ~450 hp to the wheels on 19 psi with a stock low miles block, and this one doesn't compare yet at 17 psi. I don't know what it'll feel like at 23 though.

 

[turbo89]

There's a guy on this thread sounds confident, but I'm awaiting to get his reply as to his level of confidence. He says they're Speed Pro hypereutectic...he used to have them. http://turbobuick.com/threads/what-...tning-bolt-stamp-see-pic.439369/#post-3655051

Please - tell me what you would do? Before you answer, I just put the scope down the TB and did my best to check out the heads (see pics). As far as I can tell, no port work. I'm not one bit surprised, because while our cars are fast, and I've got a lot of bolt-on upgrades, I've owned enough TR's to get the sense that the heads didn't feel ported. It's not "ported heads" fast. I wouldn't expect it to compare to my 4th GN, which had GN1's, but that car was a MONSTER (stock bottom end, and a 212/212 cam) and bolt-ons This one feels like - a stock engine, with an FMIC, 3" DP, exhaust bigger turbo, and chip. I don't even feel a cam! So what would you do?

Last to check is the forged crank, which was $700. Nick said it required a steel balance ($290), and that is on the car...but that could be just because it's visible.

I'm in Fountain, CO.

And you're point is an excellent one. If I don't have the internals I asked for, how much can I push this motor? I'll tell you right now, I'm in no danger of hitting 500 hp just yet. My 4th GN made over ~450 hp to the wheels on 19 psi with a stock low miles block, and this one doesn't compare yet at 17 psi. I don't know what it'll feel like at 23 though.

Well as far as the pistons go .. I would do exactly what Earl suggested ... drop the oil plug .. check the bottom of the pistons for the part numbers .. if it starts with a H its not a forged piston .. at the same time I would take a looksee at the crank and see what that's all about .. at least you will know what you have and what you don't .

You can't assume anything at this point .. until you confirm everything yourself ..

As far as the porting ... looks stock to me ,,, maybe there is a misunderstanding and the receipt says PORT MATCHING ? .. maybe just the intake was touched up and cleaned up around the ports ???

if the receipt says porting heads .. that I would not call ported .
you ask what I would do .. simple .. at this point take out the receipt and check every line item against what you really have or do not have .. then make a decision on course of action. Until you confirm these things its all up in the air. After you confirm the parts .. then I would actually move on to checking tolerances and clearances

He gave you the build sheet for the motor right ?

 

[Boost231]

something is up with your MAF or your springs are toast and its floating the valves

what are you seeing that i'm not? MAF is a 3.5 unit. it seems to be working fine. log looks good for the most part. only things i see would be

bump the WOT tps voltage up just a hair (your is still good i just like to see it at 4.6)
Vehicle speedo input needs to be checked as it falls from 73 to 59 then picks back up slowly even while still at WOT
Couple small spots of knock (better a/f or pull a deg of timing and it will go away im sure)
Alittle more advance then i like to run at WOT



Time to hook up the 3bar map and get a WB sensor.

as for the valve springs or valve float. i see nothing in his log that would even suggest that.

 

[Terbro]

Well as far as the pistons go .. I would do exactly what Earl suggested ... drop the oil plug .. check the bottom of the pistons for the part numbers .. if it starts with a H its not a forged piston .. at the same time I would take a looksee at the crank and see what that's all about .. at least you will know what you have and what you don't .

You can't assume anything at this point .. until you confirm everything yourself ..

As far as the porting ... looks stock to me ,,, maybe there is a misunderstanding and the receipt says PORT MATCHING ? .. maybe just the intake was touched up and cleaned up around the ports ???

if the receipt says porting heads .. that I would not call ported .
you ask what I would do .. simple .. at this point take out the receipt and check every line item against what you really have or do not have .. then make a decision on course of action. Until you confirm these things its all up in the air. After you confirm the parts .. then I would actually move on to checking tolerances and clearances

He gave you the build sheet for the motor right ?

Another guy commented that Speed Pro doesn't make a piston for 0.020 over...only 30 over and up. Nick told me repeatedly that the motor would be bored 20 over. If that guy is right, then there's just yet another lie from Nick. Why he would bore it more than he said he would, I don't know.

What I suspect, is Nick probably gambled on me selling the car sooner than later. I told him I might have it built and then flip it. If that was his scam, he thought he'd just take me for $10K real quick, and I'd sell it, and never know the difference.

And no...I made it very clear I wanted the heads ported. There was never a word mentioned about "port matching". I wanted my heads ported...simple. Again, whenever I mentioned it, he didn't want to talk about it. I was suspicious right then it didn't happen. He was majorly dodging the whole head porting subject, and he just reeked of scammer the whole time.

As far as the line items go, I've already done that. His invoice is fairly general in its description. This is what I got as a description for the $3,000 line item: "REBUILD 109 ENGINE -FORGED PISTONS, NEW CAM, BEARINGS, GASKETS AND MACHINE WORK".

Build sheet? What's a build sheet? That question's answered.

So yes, I've been assuming the worst for some time now. I'm assuming I do not have a forged crank....is the main thing. I'll have the local Speed Shop check the lift to see if I've got anything beyond a stock cam.

Some of this stuff just doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't he put in the fuel pump?!!!! He knew I was running E85 and would be turning up the boost. And you know...something is very perplexing. When I drove to Phoenix to pick it up, and went for a test drive when I first arrived at his house, it was insanely fast. I know I wasn't used to such a fast car, but I remember the thing being rocket fast. And it was 90 degrees out. It's almost like he spiked the fuel with something to make it faster. I can't explain it, but it felt like it had 80-100 more hp than it does now.

Anyway, I'll continue checking everything to see exactly what I do and don't have in this motor.

 

[Boost231]

Another guy commented that Speed Pro doesn't make a piston for 0.020 over...only 30 over and up. Nick told me repeatedly that the motor would be bored 20 over. If that guy is right, then there's just yet another lie from Nick. Why he would bore it more than he said he would, I don't know.

What I suspect, is Nick probably gambled on me selling the car sooner than later. I told him I might have it built and then flip it. If that was his scam, he thought he'd just take me for $10K real quick, and I'd sell it, and never know the difference.

And no...I made it very clear I wanted the heads ported. There was never a word mentioned about "port matching". I wanted my heads ported...simple. Again, whenever I mentioned it, he didn't want to talk about it. I was suspicious right then it didn't happen. He was majorly dodging the whole head porting subject, and he just reeked of scammer the whole time.

As far as the line items go, I've already done that. His invoice is fairly general in its description. This is what I got as a description for the $3,000 line item: "REBUILD 109 ENGINE -FORGED PISTONS, NEW CAM, BEARINGS, GASKETS AND MACHINE WORK".

Build sheet? What's a build sheet? That question's answered.

So yes, I've been assuming the worst for some time now. I'm assuming I do not have a forged crank....is the main thing. I'll have the local Speed Shop check the lift to see if I've got anything beyond a stock cam.

Some of this stuff just doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't he put in the fuel pump?!!!! He knew I was running E85 and would be turning up the boost. And you know...something is very perplexing. When I drove to Phoenix to pick it up, and went for a test drive when I first arrived at his house, it was insanely fast. I know I wasn't used to such a fast car, but I remember the thing being rocket fast. And it was 90 degrees out. It's almost like he spiked the fuel with something to make it faster. I can't explain it, but it felt like it had 80-100 more hp than it does now.

Anyway, I'll continue checking everything to see exactly what I do and don't have in this motor.

Wow.



Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

 

[Terbro]

what are you seeing that i'm not? MAF is a 3.5 unit. it seems to be working fine. log looks good for the most part. only things i see would be bump the WOT tps voltage up just a hair (your is still good i just like to see it at 4.6)
Vehicle speedo input needs to be checked as it falls from 73 to 59 then picks back up slowly even while still at WOT
Couple small spots of knock (better a/f or pull a deg of timing and it will go away im sure)
Alittle more advance then i like to run at WOT

Time to hook up the 3bar map and get a WB sensor.

as for the valve springs or valve float. i see nothing in his log that would even suggest that.

My TPS is maxed at 4.34...that's as far as I could get it. Someone mentioned...a rat file to the holes a bit...to extend it out?

Right...my speedo is whacky. It'll fly around all over the speedo gauge. If it's cold at all, it stops working, and I don't have the lock up on the convertor.

3 bar MAP sensor should arrive Friday.

Well...I not the expert, and am reliant on you gurus' input. Should I not bother with having the valve springs checked? It will be a considerable effort, to go to the Speed Shop. And while I know these cars are high maintenance, you can understand I'd rather not waste my time, and...Lord knows I've already put in a lot of time already.

Mainly - I'd love to continue plugging away though. I've made substantial progress, and now the issue (as of the last run at least) is limited to hitting 3rd gear and staying flat at 4K rpms.

 

[Boost231]

My TPS is maxed at 4.34...that's as far as I could get it. Someone mentioned...a rat file to the holes a bit...to extend it out?

Right...my speedo is whacky. It'll fly around all over the speedo gauge. If it's cold at all, it stops working, and I don't have the lock up on the convertor.

3 bar MAP sensor should arrive Friday.

Well...I not the expert, and am reliant on you gurus' input. Should I not bother with having the valve springs checked? It will be a considerable effort, to go to the Speed Shop. And while I know these cars are high maintenance, you can understand I'd rather not waste my time, and...Lord knows I've already put in a lot of time already.

Mainly - I'd love to continue plugging away though. I've made substantial progress, and now the issue (as of the last run at least) is limited to hitting 3rd gear and staying flat at 4K rpms.

4.3 is good, I just like mine on the higher side (4.5 or so) don't exceed 4.8 . Just leave it alone imop

As for the speedo, you could pull the cable and lube it or just replace it and that should help if not fix the problem. Mine kinda did the same and was noisy as hell and I lubed it and it was ok for a few years. Then it snapped and I put in a new one with no issues.

As for the valve springs your this far along so I would check them. I just see nothing in your log that would suggest valve float at all.

As for the powerlogger file and rpm, from what I can see since you only ran it to 80mph your converter might be coupling hard in that rpms area. Your still picking up speed and rpm is coming up slow in 3rd.

If you look at the 1/2 it pulled hard to 5250 and the 2/3 to 5015. So why would one think it's floating valves at 4000?

This is juts my opinion and I'm always trying to learn so I might be way off here.

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[Terbro]

If you look at the 1/2 it pulled hard to 5250 and the 2/3 to 5015. So why would one think it's floating valves at 4000?

Right. It was pulling and climbing through the rpm range perfectly in 1st and 2nd...then the moment it hit 3rd, dropping to 4K rpms, it just stayed there...flat.

 

[Boost231]

But it is still gain mph. Thus still pulling. Rpm is increasing on the log but when your converter couples it won't increase as fast and your previous gears.

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[Terbro]

Well, it's a long one, but I feel it's important to the TR Community. I really don't like bashing people, quite honestly. But I don't like getting ripped off, and I doubt other do either. So I took my time and wrote the whole long story...as accurately and fairly as I could. No one has ever accused me of being too short-winded. It keep denying me, because it was too long, so I had to spread it to several pages: http://turbobuick.com/threads/nick-...tor-and-trans-major-misconduct-beware.439376/

 

[turbo89]

what are you seeing that i'm not? MAF is a 3.5 unit. it seems to be working fine. log looks good for the most part. only things i see would be

bump the WOT tps voltage up just a hair (your is still good i just like to see it at 4.6)
Vehicle speedo input needs to be checked as it falls from 73 to 59 then picks back up slowly even while still at WOT
Couple small spots of knock (better a/f or pull a deg of timing and it will go away im sure)
Alittle more advance then i like to run at WOT



Time to hook up the 3bar map and get a WB sensor.

as for the valve springs or valve float. i see nothing in his log that would even suggest that.

Then you aren't looking at the same log I am ... you don't see anything up with the MAF ??? REALLY ??

 

[turbo89]

Right. It was pulling and climbing through the rpm range perfectly in 1st and 2nd...then the moment it hit 3rd, dropping to 4K rpms, it just stayed there...flat.

I don't want to waste anyone's time .. but I seriously would look at checking the springs .. I know its a PITA .. and you've done a lot of work that should have been done already .. but if you want it to run 100% .. its gotta be done ... we just have no idea of whats on there ..

its your best bet at this point to make sure that you have a solid foundation with parts that you know are on there.