disappointment on the dyno

[seeyabye]

My biggest concern is not the lack of power, but the fact that we could not get the AF ratio even close to what it should be. Even going to extremes with 50psi fuel pressure and the translator kicking in 14%, o2s were in the high 600s and the AF ratio was no better than 13 to 1. I think that If I can get this problem sorted out, the power will come with it. According to the online HP calculators, my old combo with the TA 49, 009's, stock maf, 2800stall, and stock intercooler was making 75 more to the wheels. Thanks for the replies, I'll keep you posted.

 

[DonnieShort]

What are the dip switches set to in the Translator? With an Extender chip it needs to be on, on ,off, off. You said you swapped chips but didn't mention if you changed the dip switches or not.

 

[rodman99999]

After you get everything else straightened out: keep in mind that high(er than stock) stall converters tend to really screw with dyno readings.

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Sharif



Also sharif get the car tuned some what and take it back with race gas in the car. alcohol is nice but it's not like race gas. injecting to much alky can the car lazy.

when i dynoed my car i done some testing.while at 20 psi of boost with race gas tring to tune the car i got the tune where i wanted it A/F wise. then on my last pull i turned on my alky to pump speed # 4 where it runs on the street for 20 psi. when i made a pull with the alky injecting on top of the race gas. the car lost almost 15 hp thats a lot of power. so i will say it again there is no replacement for race gas when wanting max HP.

Then you should have raised the boost up to compensate for the extra added fuel being injected by the alcohol, you would have made more power with the addition of meth, IF it wasnt rich!
If you add more fuel, then add more boost to get it right.

seeyabye -
Seems you are doing everything right, you have a good 02 sensor but the numbers are really low.. It could be lean, but if its blowing black smoke, then its rich... Pull the plugs, are they black or white?

You say the fuel pressure rizes 1:1 ratio, but have you tested to see if its flowing enough fuel, pull the schreader out and do a GPM test to see if your getting correct flow from the pump, you have pressure, but do you have volume? Does the fuel pressure stay up during the pass every single time?

Low 02s could be loose grounds on the back of the pass side head, but ive seen them drop to the 300's and lower, just check to see if they are connected really well.

Even thou the dyno sniffer was showing 13.1 ratio, doesnt mean it was working correctly....
Last june we experienced 2 cars with lean Air Fuels but the scanmasters were showing different and the egts were actually showing they were extreemly rich, One on racegas, one on meth... both had the translator boxes on them without extender chips, both running turbo tweak chips... both ran fine off the dyno...

Mine was first on the dyno and scaled down to 11.4:1 between 3800 and 4800, mine has the stock MAF with one screen removed. I locked my convertor and set the boost to 21psi, 25° 92 octane and SMC set to 6, 365HP/556TQ stock turbo,ic and 30# injectors.

If you dont have your convertor locked, then you will loose tons of power to the rear wheels, probably close to 100HP and 140TQ

I would test the fuel pump for Gallons per minute, varify the tranlator box is set right and working correctly, and check to see what the WOT timing is set to. Seems like the issue isnt fuel pressure regulator,chips,02 sensor, coil pack and module.
Could be a combination of maf sensor setup and weak fuel pump, that or you are just missing some power because your convertor is not locked.
What does it do on the street?
BW

 

[seeyabye]

On the street, the car is noticeably slower than with the old combo. I just found my old injectors and stock maf, so I'm going to try swapping them back in to see if that helps.

 

[2QUIK6]

On the street, the car is noticeably slower than with the old combo. I just found my old injectors and stock maf, so I'm going to try swapping them back in to see if that helps.

Maybe I missed it above, but you also need the previous chip...you did change the chip to match the new injectors?

 

[VadersV6]

Too much fuel can make the O2 readings worthless.
Did this guy disable closed loop? Did he lock timing in to a fixed number? Ive had people do that to me before. Your car should not have been spitting out fuel and missing when you drove home. It almost sounds like he's locked into open loop and fixed timing and A/F at all times.
If your converter wasnt locked, that will really kill your numbers.
I have a 3.5" MAF, but for some reason, switching the translator to 3" MAF made all the difference in the world. Bad thing is that you will have to erase memory and reset your base parameters in the extender every time you make a switch to your translator (switching from 3 to 3.5" MAF or whatever). I had it switched to 3.5' MAF and the BLMs were all screwy and it didnt run right. I shut it off and switched to 3" MAF and it ran worse. But then I erased the memory, reset the extender with the race fan on, and lean cruise and all that, then started it up and it ran great. I guess the leftover adaptive stuff in the chip will affect how it runs when you switch the translator settings. So its probably best to erase the memory every time.
What is your O2 curve like? Does it just lock right into the numbers you're saying and stay there, or do the numbers change?

 

[Razor]

The dyno operator was comfortable tuning on DFI style systems not on your chip setup.

I would put the car down to ground zero as far as basics.. get it to run low 800's at WOT then work from there and see where the problem lies.

Running 146 on AF can be a huge issue if your not running an extender chip. With the Tweak chip it should go 255 at WOT. So make sure the settings on the translator get you the 255 that way the chip knows to open the injectors up.

Doing 2nd gear pulls you should be able and see a pattern from the O2 sensor.. and it better be in the 800's.. else start looking for problems.

The comments above on alky are out on left field. When I read the term pump speed 4 that says a lot.

Your tank should noticably be coming down after every run.. expect 1 OZ per second consumption. It is probably whats saving you currently.

Get the idle BL's in the +-5 from 128 and make sure it goes to 255 on a non-extender chip.. I bet all will start clearing up. Once you have the fueling sorted out into the upper 700's at WOT.. then work on the dyno/track if you wish.

HTH

 

[SloGN]

The comments above on alky are out on left field. When I read the term pump speed 4 that says a lot.

wish.

HTH

would you like to see the dyno sheets that show the power loss when i sprayed the alky on top of the race gas.

I have said it before and i will say it again. THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR RACE GAS WHEN TUNING FOR MAX HP/TORQUE.




i might be a idiot but i have tested it in a real world test.

 

[seeyabye]

The problem is that no matter what I do, I can't get the o2s even in the 700s. The boost is turned down as far as it will go(20psi), and no matter what setting on the translator or what fuel pressure I run, those numbers won't change. I am going to start reversing my combo until I find the problem.

 

[SloGN]

Consumption of alcohol will be, in rough figures, double that of petrol, due to the calorific value being about half that of petrol.

The correct air-fuel ratio for petrol is 14.1 to 15.1, but for alcohol it is 7.1 to 9.1 so that means we must pass at least twice the weight of fuel, in the case of alcohol, to heat the same amount of air to the same temperature as we need for petrol.

Since the specific gravity of the two fuels is near enough the same it means in effect we have to pass through the jets double the quantity of the fuel.

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

would you like to see the dyno sheets that show the power loss when i sprayed the alky on top of the race gas.

I have said it before and i will say it again. THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR RACE GAS WHEN TUNING FOR MAX HP/TORQUE.




i might be a idiot but i have tested it in a real world test.

I would like to see the dyno sheets, please post them including Air Fuel :biggrin: Lets see what went wrong.

BW

 

[Razor]

would you like to see the dyno sheets that show the power loss when i sprayed the alky on top of the race gas.

I have said it before and i will say it again. THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR RACE GAS WHEN TUNING FOR MAX HP/TORQUE.




i might be a idiot but i have tested it in a real world test.

Proof is in the pudding.. your tests were flawed due to bad system design.

Times in sig put me in the 700 RWHP range on junk..

No race gas

 

[Razor]

Consumption of alcohol will be, in rough figures, double that of petrol, due to the calorific value being about half that of petrol.

The correct air-fuel ratio for petrol is 14.1 to 15.1, but for alcohol it is 7.1 to 9.1 so that means we must pass at least twice the weight of fuel, in the case of alcohol, to heat the same amount of air to the same temperature as we need for petrol.

Since the specific gravity of the two fuels is near enough the same it means in effect we have to pass through the jets double the quantity of the fuel.

Put up the logs showing identical "tuned" air fuel ratios, identical boost, identical coolant temps, identical timing where power was lost when alcohol was sprayed. And I want to see intake air temp drop to show alcohol was being sprayed in.

Please post how tuning was being accomplished. FAST/BS3/AEM/DFI/Etc??

Your ball


PS, I know what probably happened..

 

[Razor]

The problem is that no matter what I do, I can't get the o2s even in the 700s. The boost is turned down as far as it will go(20psi), and no matter what setting on the translator or what fuel pressure I run, those numbers won't change. I am going to start reversing my combo until I find the problem.

What is the AF when you hit 20 PSI? Is it 255?

One step at a time..

 

[seeyabye]

At 20 psi, the af is 146. That is with the extender chip. I havent put the tubotweak chip back in yet.

 

[SloGN]

Put up the logs showing identical "tuned" air fuel ratios, identical boost, identical coolant temps, identical timing where power was lost when alcohol was sprayed. And I want to see intake air temp drop to show alcohol was being sprayed in.

Please post how tuning was being accomplished. FAST/BS3/AEM/DFI/Etc??

Your ball


PS, I know what probably happened..

I was using the stock Ecm with a 3.5 maf with 55 lbs extender extreme chip.

also the air fuel #'s didn't change when i sprayed the alky on the race gas but it lost 15 hp. i may be wrong on the alky making it lose the power. but why did it lose power when i turned the alky on?

i don't have a flat bed scanner @ home so i will post the sheets later when i get a chance to at work.

dyno pull #1 temp 84.98d 29.42in-hg, humidity 33% sae 1.02 max power 343.67 max torque 439.38 19 psi/boost was pulled in third gear till 5500 rpm convertor unlocked coolant temp 168 A/F 11.8 timing 23/21

dyno pull #2 temp 85.18d 29.42in-hg, humidity 35% sae 1.02 max power 350.89 max torque 429.03 20 psi/boost was pulled in third gear till 5500 rpm convertor unlocked coolant temp 175 A/F 12.9 timing 23/21

dyno pull # 3 temp 85.31 29.42 in-hg humidity 35% sae 1.02 max power 336.79 max torque 404.23 20 psi/boost was pulled in third gear till 5500 rpm convertor unlocked coolant temp 172 A/F 12.7 Smc alky kit turn on @ 6-7 psi with the pump speed of 4 on the dail where it is set for the street and 93 octane timing 23/21

i didn't have a way to measure the intake temp @ the throttle body to note how big of a temp diffrence there was to the intake charge. i was simply making note about my experiences. then you had to make a snide remark
(The comments above on alky are out on left field. When I read the term pump speed 4 that says a lot.

if the alcohol didn't affect it losing HP/torque then what did cause it to lose power from run 2 to run 3 ?

the race gas i was using was a mix of 93/110 50/50 mix

maybe my smc kit is my flaw. like i siad before this was my own experiences.



BTW please tell me what happen........

 

[Turbo1dr]

Have you checked your 02 readings manually with a DVOM and not with the gauge that won't read into 700's?

 

[Razor]

At 20 psi, the af is 146. That is with the extender chip. I havent put the tubotweak chip back in yet.

Put the Tweak chip back in, set pos 3 on the translator to "on", see if it goes to 255. If it does and your still leaning out, then I would suspect fuel delivery. Once your AF goes to 255.. the chip opens up the injectors.

Another thing to look at is if the O2's jump into the mid 800's initially when you get on the gas. That will typically show that the O2 is working as should.

Some cars when driving down the road, if you depress the test button on the alky system will jump into the 800's.

Reset computer after changing the chip, wait for the new chip to be learned by the ecm. In other words drive it around until the BLM's are learned.

Report back.

 

[Razor]

I was using the stock Ecm with a 3.5 maf with 55 lbs extender extreme chip.

also the air fuel #'s didn't change when i sprayed the alky on the race gas but it lost 15 hp. i may be wrong on the alky making it lose the power. but why did it lose power when i turned the alky on?

i don't have a flat bed scanner @ home so i will post the sheets later when i get a chance to at work.

dyno pull #1 temp 84.98d 29.42in-hg, humidity 33% sae 1.02 max power 343.67 max torque 439.38 19 psi/boost was pulled in third gear till 5500 rpm convertor unlocked coolant temp 168 A/F 11.8 timing 23/21

dyno pull #2 temp 85.18d 29.42in-hg, humidity 35% sae 1.02 max power 350.89 max torque 429.03 20 psi/boost was pulled in third gear till 5500 rpm convertor unlocked coolant temp 175 A/F 12.9 timing 23/21

dyno pull # 3 temp 85.31 29.42 in-hg humidity 35% sae 1.02 max power 336.79 max torque 404.23 20 psi/boost was pulled in third gear till 5500 rpm convertor unlocked coolant temp 172 A/F 12.7 Smc alky kit turn on @ 6-7 psi with the pump speed of 4 on the dail where it is set for the street and 93 octane timing 23/21

i didn't have a way to measure the intake temp @ the throttle body to note how big of a temp diffrence there was to the intake charge. i was simply making note about my experiences. then you had to make a snide remark
(The comments above on alky are out on left field. When I read the term pump speed 4 that says a lot.

if the alcohol didn't affect it losing HP/torque then what did cause it to lose power from run 2 to run 3 ?

the race gas i was using was a mix of 93/110 50/50 mix

maybe my smc kit is my flaw. like i siad before this was my own experiences.



BTW please tell me what happen........

More than likely three scenario's.

Scenario 1, by spraying a fixed amount of alcohol on an early on set it cuases the motor to dip in power from being too rich. What then happens is that your dyno curve starts on a lower point. And then the motor doesnt develop the same amount of power. Remember dyno pulls are short in duration, if you start bad.. it will end up worse.

Scenario 2, by running a translator and an alky system that drives a pump using PWM, the translator can pick up interference cuasing a fueling issue. Those that use direct scan can see the MAF line get whacky when an injection system sprays.

Scenario 3, If the alky system was spraying, your air fuel should of dropped hard. Since the motor was lean on the third pull it means that it wasnt spraying, but since the system activated.. it still created the PWM signal to run the pump. I bet what happened was it didnt spray and the translator picked up interference.. both double bads.

The rule of thumb target with alcohol + pump gas/race gas is 11.3-11.5:1. Running the motor leaner than that will typically lose HP. Becuase it doesnt knock doesnt mean its making power.. lean is not always mean.

Lastly, the way power is made using injection is replacing fuel that is pulled. If you target a 20% replacement.. that typically is a good starting point.

Tuning using chips and single wire O2 sensors takes patience/practice/perserverance. There is no cake walk.

Pump speed 4 on the older SMC alky kits didnt spray anything. When I had mine, anything under 5 would create no AF change on my motor. It was always set to 10. And my activation point was 10-12 PSI. Not 6-7 PSI. Those with a fixed pressure alky kit will know that an early turnon like that will create a tuning mess. On a progressive controller.. 5-6 PSI is the norm.

Cheers

HTH