Engine smoking at idle , oil in intake GN1R heads

[luv2fast]

with only 1/16" of gasket sealing on the bottom valley side I would be a little suspect, that it is sucking the oil from there, did you pull the doghouse to see the oil in the intake ?, was it high or low ?

All the way to the back of the throttle body, and that's after 20 min of idling

 

[No disintegrations]

I don't even have the turbo on the engine yet, have a set of old headers that I used to warm up with so I can re-torque the heads.
The engine once warm, Idles a bit high, but not eratic, it typically idles at 1100, makes since now its idling at 1400
I cant really tell if the intake gaskets are messed up because when I pull the intake off, it rips the gaskets all up

Try a simple test Bison Thought of: With the engine idling take off the oil cap and feel for vacuum with your hand. If it feels like a ton of suction then it's probably sucking at bad intake port gasket alignment. ( You will also hear the idle quality change if a mass air car, not SD ) This is since you have no pcv valve. If you had one you'd block it off for the test.
If the oil rings are bad or not installed correctly, it will smoke, but not get oil into the intake, right?

Try a simple test Bison Thought of: With the engine idling take off the oil cap and feel for vacuum with your hand. If it feels like a ton of suction then it's probably sucking at bad intake port gasket alignment. ( You will also hear the idle quality change if a mass air car, not SD ) This is since you have no pcv valve. If you had one you'd block it off for the test.

Correct, rings would just smoke, not mess the intake.

 

[lrayzer]

but the intercooler pipes are dry ?

 

[turbodaniel]

What was the issue with your engine?

I never found the out what the problem was as the the motor blew for another reason, but it was exactly what you are describing. I changed intake gaskets, valve seals everything I could without pulling the heads. In rebuilding the motor my builder wasnt able to pinpoint what the problem was . If it was the rings it would smoked like a freight train going down the track which it never did. My conclusion it had to be something with the heads

Sorry couldnt be of more help, Hopefully you will get to the bottom of this

 

[bison]

I never found the out what the problem was as the the motor blew for another reason, but it was exactly what you are describing. I changed intake gaskets, valve seals everything I could without pulling the heads. In rebuilding the motor my builder wasnt able to pinpoint what the problem was . If it was the rings it would smoked like a freight train going down the track which it never did. My conclusion it had to be something with the heads

Sorry couldnt be of more help, Hopefully you will get to the bottom of this

I disagree with smoking going down the track if rings. Usually the cylinder pressure is a lot higher than the crankcase pressure at wot in a turbo engine and won't smoke visibly under load if it's a ring seal problem. Though it would likely have a lot of blow by. Ring seal that is a problem is usually most prevalent when the vacuum is highest. Like when letting off the throttle at the end of a pass.


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[fastblackracing]

All the way to the back of the throttle body, and that's after 20 min of idling

Theres only so many ways the oil can get in there.

• You pressure tested the intake-if it held 25 psi good it is not likely sucking oil.
• You checked the valve seals there still on and intact, even if they were damaged I am not sure they would be passing the amount of oil you describe.
• You have no pcv to suck oil.
• You do not even have the turbo on the car so rule that out.
• Have you verified it is not sucking oil through the rocker arm hold down bolts/studs?
• Have you verified that you have good oil drain back on the heads...run the engine 5 minutes and see if there is excessive oil level on the top of the heads......you will have to pull your breather hoses off beforehand to check this
• Which really only leaves the pistons and rings...you leak tested and it has great leak down numbers but....if you have the ultra low tension oil rings and they are allowing the second rings to be flooded with oil.....the second ring is only meant to give a final wipe on the bore it is not up to doing major clean up.
• The T/A block has high quality cylinder liners in it that may not hone quite the same as soft cast iron...did you assemble the engine or was it done by a shop?

 

[fastblackracing]

All the way to the back of the throttle body, and that's after 20 min of idling

Theres only so many ways the oil can get in there.

• You pressure tested the intake-if it held 25 psi good it is not likely sucking oil.
• You checked the valve seals there still on and intact, even if they were damaged I am not sure they would be passing the amount of oil you describe.
• You have no pcv to suck oil.
• You do not even have the turbo on the car so rule that out.
• Have you verified it not sucking oil through the rocker arm hold down bolts/studs? Also no areas ground through on the intake ports where they are exposed to oil?
• Which really only leaves the pistons and rings...you leak tested and it has great leak down numbers but....if you have the ultra low tension oil rings and they are allowing the second rings to be flooded with oil.....the second ring is only meant to give a final wipe on the bore it is not up to doing major clean up.
• The T/A block has high quality cylinder liners in it that may not hone the same as soft cast iron......did you assemble the engine or was it done in a shop?

 

[vacuum 6]

When my PCV was sucking oil I detected by the wet gasket and oil puddling on the top of the PP.

 

[Ed Valvo]

Are these heads max ported where sleeves were required to seal ports from the head bolts?

 

[Cme2fly]

Check your intake side rocker studs for oil running down the threads. If they check out, take a close look at your guides? Are the heads new or used? If used, any repairs?

 

[luv2fast]

Theres only so many ways the oil can get in there.

• You pressure tested the intake-if it held 25 psi good it is not likely sucking oil.
• You checked the valve seals there still on and intact, even if they were damaged I am not sure they would be passing the amount of oil you describe.
• You have no pcv to suck oil.
• You do not even have the turbo on the car so rule that out.
• Have you verified it not sucking oil through the rocker arm hold down bolts/studs? Also no areas ground through on the intake ports where they are exposed to oil?
• Which really only leaves the pistons and rings...you leak tested and it has great leak down numbers but....if you have the ultra low tension oil rings and they are allowing the second rings to be flooded with oil.....the second ring is only meant to give a final wipe on the bore it is not up to doing major clean up.
• The T/A block has high quality cylinder liners in it that may not hone the same as soft cast iron......did you assemble the engine or was it done in a shop?

TA assembled it

 

[luv2fast]

Check your intake side rocker studs for oil running down the threads. If they check out, take a close look at your guides? Are the heads new or used? If used, any repairs?

I use Permatex 51031 high temp sealant and have never had oil through the studs
With the regular Permatex black aviation stuff I have had in the past that issue
Heads are 2 years old and no repairs

 

[luv2fast]

Are these heads max ported where sleeves were required to seal ports from the head bolts?

Yes they were and they do have thoes sleeves

 

[luv2fast]

Theres only so many ways the oil can get in there.

• You pressure tested the intake-if it held 25 psi good it is not likely sucking oil.
• You checked the valve seals there still on and intact, even if they were damaged I am not sure they would be passing the amount of oil you describe.
• You have no pcv to suck oil.
• You do not even have the turbo on the car so rule that out.
• Have you verified it not sucking oil through the rocker arm hold down bolts/studs? Also no areas ground through on the intake ports where they are exposed to oil?
• Which really only leaves the pistons and rings...you leak tested and it has great leak down numbers but....if you have the ultra low tension oil rings and they are allowing the second rings to be flooded with oil.....the second ring is only meant to give a final wipe on the bore it is not up to doing major clean up.
• The T/A block has high quality cylinder liners in it that may not hone the same as soft cast iron......did you assemble the engine or was it done in a shop?

These heads have a 2.375" tall port, the big Cometic gaskets are 2.2" so I suppose it is possible that champion ported through a push rod hole or something like that??

 

[luv2fast]

Try a simple test Bison Thought of: With the engine idling take off the oil cap and feel for vacuum with your hand. If it feels like a ton of suction then it's probably sucking at bad intake port gasket alignment. ( You will also hear the idle quality change if a mass air car, not SD ) This is since you have no pcv valve. If you had one you'd block it off for the test.

Correct, rings would just smoke, not mess the intake.

I had Cometic make me some custom intake gaskets with a .500 more lower sealing surface on the bottom of the intake
They should be here in a week or so
And I will do the test that Bison suggests

 

[Ed Valvo]

Yeah seen a few sets suck in oil through head bolt sleeves. You'd think the head bolt or stud nut and washer wouldn't allow oil to enter but it did. Not sure if that is your problem though.

 

[luv2fast]

Yeah seen a few sets suck in oil through head bolt sleeves. You'd think the head bolt or stud nut and washer wouldn't allow oil to enter but it did. Not sure if that is your problem though.

I thought about that when I had my haeads off last time and I put a little Permatex hi temp flange sealant on the bottom of the washers between the head and the washer and ARP lube on the top and the nut

 

[luv2fast]

A little update, I got some new intake manifold gaskets from Cometc and tested it again
Stilled smoked after the engine warmed up at a idle and on deaccell and I mean a lot and just a note I'm running Redline 30 wt race synthetic
Pulled off the intake and it was perfectly sealed around all intake ports the gaskets ripped in half
Lots of oil in the intake probably a tablespoon on top of every valve that was closed
There is no way that much oil is coming from a valve guide so I'm betting it's the rings, probably never seated correctly
So I pulled the motor and pushed out the Pistons
Took very little effort to get the out almost slid out
I think this is the issue!

What do you all think??
For new rings will I need to have a machine shop hone the cylinders liners Or can I do it??

 

[BEATAV8]

Keep investigating, find out exactly what is wrong before doing anything. Measure piston dia, bore dia, see what the clearance is. Not sure how to go about inspecting the rings..... There's a "WTF" hiding in here somewhere that would be good to identify.

 

[BEATAV8]

Check orientation of the rings, see if they are upside down or something silly like that.