fuel suystem

[stank231]

i wanted to replace my fuel system..I have 2 286s outside of the gas tank..they work well but I was wondering if i could install something that would handle all my needs as far as fuel goes...when I say needs...I mean the one fuel sysytem that I will never need to upgrade.....and would be much QUIETER......I can hardly hear myself think...I am trying to make the car more streetable...both of my pumps are fed from two half inch pickups in the tanf and they go through a fuel injection filter and eventually work they're way up a #8 to the fuel rail....Thanks in advance

 

[strikeeagle]

A single Walbro 340M in-tank pump will take you down to 11.0, give or take (and quietly)...

 

[Mr URL]

How fast you talking here? I like Red's XP Plus Double Pumper. Quiet and flows like a garden hose. Second pump kicks on about 10 psi boost and above.

 

[stank231]

i wanted somethin that would take me well into the 10's yet would be much quiter than what i have right now.....How much does that set up you're talking about go for?

 

[Mr URL]

Originally posted by stank231
i wanted somethin that would take me well into the 10's yet would be much quiter than what i have right now.....How much does that set up you're talking about go for?

Then I would go the in-tank double pumper route. It has enough fuel for 9's. It's expensive though. I paid like $450 I think. Very nice plug-n-play system. Very quiet.

You can get it from Ron's Custom Auto or Quad Air.

Quad Air, Inc. - Red Armstrong
7161 Fitch Road, Olmstead, OH 44138
1 (440) 235 3232 (10am-3pm ET M-F)

Ron's Custom Auto & Service Headquarters - Ron Joseph
305 S. Michigan Avenue, Kenilworth, NJ 07033
1 (800) 718 7667
1 (908) 241 7211 Days
1 (908) 245 2210 Nights & Weekends

gnx342@aol.com

 

[Nick Micale]

The more I use the double pumpers, the less I am impressed for a 10 sec. car. You already have taken a very important step and upgraded your lines. Get a real HP pump. one burp from an in-tank pump and your high $$$ motor has a serious problem. Seem more than one Walbro with a problem. Feeding 700 or so HP with a line less than 3/8" does not make me feel comfortable.

Jack Cotton is an Aeromotive distributor. He also has lots of experience with race car fuel systems, contact him for good advise.

Stay tuned for a couple "slightly" used double pumpers for sale soon!

Contact me direct if you want more info about a GN system we just finished.

 

[Racetronix]

Walbro pumps have a better hour life and reliability factory than any current external HP pump. Walbro pumps meet QS9000 spec which is the same spec used by OEMs for production pumps. This spec requires the pumps to survive all sorts of torture tests such as running dry, hot, cold, shock, vibration, low voltage, high voltage… etc. I have yet to see an external HP pump last 5000+ hours and be put through these tests.

Double pumps work quite well whether it’s in a Buick or not.
Racetronix has double pump setups in many nine and ten second Camaros and Vettes using stock lines. Many of these cars are daily drivers with a good amount of miles on them and I have yet to have to replace a failed pump. GM selected Walbro as the OEM pump in the C5 Corvette. FYI my car has had double pump in it for over eight years with over 100,000K on it and it is still going strong!

Perhaps in your experience you have had bad luck with a number of in-tank pumps hence your post. I sell a few hundred Walbro pumps each month here and to date I can count on one hand how many I have had sent back. Out of the ones sent back a good portion failed due to contamination or being run dry for extended periods of time.

As I have posted in the past, external pump systems are more expensive, typically draw more current, are noisy and unsightly. They are a liability and a potential safety hazard in a street driven car.

Jack
Racetronix

 

[Nick Micale]

Excuse me Jack, I do not consider a 10 sec car a "driver". It is a race car driven on the street.

I should have saved the Walbro pumps I have taken out as they would fill your other hand. These were NOT abused, but failed on their own.

From my experience, limited as it is, the single Walbro is probably the best in-tank pump for the money and I use them.

For someone running consistant 10's, it is a crap shoot running an in-tank pump through a 3/8" line that is even further restricted with fittings and bends.

Read my post again, I was not discussing street cars, as I ASSUMED from the original post he did not set the car up for the street.

 

[Racetronix]

Lets see now....
20MPG+ highway, quiet, A/C, stereo, tilt, cruise, full weight, a comfortable ride and driven regularly / daily. I would consider that a street car. We have at least a dozen bottom 11 / high ten second cars in my neck of the woods including mine (and I am sure others) which fit the bill and they all run Walbro pumps.

Did you ever consider investigating why those pumps you had in your hand failed or did you just assume it was a quality issue?

Nothing is a 'CRAP SHOOT' if you R&D it properly.

Jack
Racetronix

 

[Nick Micale]

I do not know where "your neck of the woods" is, but you can plainly see where I am, and it is 110 degrees here now.

Bring some of those low 11, high 10 sec cars here with our current DA of about 5000' and we will see how well your "street drivers" perform and how long they will be crusin' cool?

 

[Racetronix]

Hot , cold, high or low... it does not negate the fact that a single hotwired Walbro 340 pump is reliable and capable of supporting low 11's or high 10's in a Buick or any other car. A double pump is more than capable of 10’s. To post otherwise is misleading. What I am stating is old school and has been tried and proven for many years. Throwing an Aeromotive, SX, Paxton Weldon pump on a 10 second Buick because there was a problem with a Walbro is not addressing the true problem. If a Walbro 340 is not holding up on an 11.0 Buick then there are other issues to be addressed such as:

kinked / obstructed lines (usually at the front of the block from Re & Re’s - best replaced with braided lines)
dirty or collapsed filters (usually pumps with old style filter socks or pumps positioned / installed incorrectly)
under-sized injectors requiring excessively high fuel pressure
low fuel pump voltage
generic tank replacements w/o the proper baffles or low fuel levels
vendor modified pressure relief valves in current generation GSS307 pumps

Jack
Racetronix

 

[Devil Car]

I had a Walbro in my 87 for about 2 years before it took a crap on me. While in my car, the pump probably only saw about 10K miles, most of which were easily driven miles. The filter on the pump was pretty clean when I removed it. I was just thankful it took its last dive on a flat driveway!

Craig

 

[Nick Micale]

Jack, you have your opinion and I have mine. You became very defensive about the Walbro 340. As a vendor, I would expect you to defend your products, but not at my expense. I never bashed or downed your 340's, just stated my personal experiences.

I said I was not comfortable about a double pumper on a 700 HP motor, and that is based upon head gaskets and pistons I replaced as a result. Don't care what pump, or how many, trying to force enough fuel through a 1/4" opening like the double pumper on my desk, is asking for trouble. I do NOT consider this mis-leading. My information is not from reading, or hearing from others, it is what I have personally done. If you do not agree, that is fine. But the mis-leading label is not appropiate in this case. I did not say a 340 [one or 2] would not work, just would not trust it in the race stiuations I mentioned.

In the real world we do face crimps in the line we cannot see, collapsed hoses, bad filters, etc. When you run enough HP for consistant mid/low 10's, there is too much $$$ at stake using a stock fuel system. At least, this is my opinion.

 

[Racetronix]

Nick,

I was not being overly defensive, but rather stating my opinions and data in support of the product. The street car issue is subjective and serves no purpose although my ‘street car’ did take down a Viper GTS tonight … (15-16lbs boost & 94 pump gas). This fuel pump thread is an open discussion not a trial. When I see posts such as yours that state "Get a real HP pump." and "Stay tuned for a couple "slightly" used double pumpers for sale soon!" I feel that it is harsh even though I can see some humor in it. For every negative story you could post about a single or double pump failing to perform I could post one about an external pump that has failed in some fashion. It is not the pumps that are at issue here but rather the application. This is why I started development on a new double pump setup a while back. After looking at the currently available product on the market I saw room for improvement. Unfortunately I have had to focus on other products so the Buick project is on hold until I have more time on my hands.

Racetronix has street-driven, full weight Camaros and Corvettes reliably using custom built double in-tank systems running deep into the nine second range. We even have some LS1 cars making over 600RWHP and 680RWTQ with our single systems. Just take a tour of some of the f and y-body boards and you will see. LPE uses a single Walbro in-tank gerotor pump with a voltage booster on their turbo C5 that runs bottom 9s. This is not a 340 but not too far off from it in design. I know Red has had TR’s running into the 9’s for years using his quality twin setup. Perhaps you might consider making some minor changes to that double pumper you have sitting on your desk and some of the plumbing in your car? You will find that the plumbing upgrades you are considering for your external pump will equally benefit the double pump system you have on your desk. You just might find that it has more to offer than you think and perhaps a new life in your car?

FYI a Racetronix double in-tank system on a LS1 car has made in excess of 800RWHP without flinching. This is with our custom harness, fittings and two Walbro pumps, no voltage boosters.

The Buick prototype will be tested in a 9.5-9.7s car as a potential replacement for an external pump currently being used. The current external pump will have superior flow but the noise is intolerable on a street driven car which is otherwise very quiet.

As with all systems built at Racetronix it will be thoroughly bench tested before it is placed in the field for track testing. Racetronix uses lab grade digital pressure meters accurate within 0.25%, digital flow meters regulated supplies and Fluke test equipment to thoroughly test its fuel pump systems.

I am interested in hearing about other people's experience with their Walbro or other external pumps single or double good or bad. This way we can all learn and benefit from this thread. Posts that are made just for the sake of trashing a particular product / person and have nothing to offer technically are best avoided.

Jack
Racetronix

 

[clean86]

Fuel systems

Ok there is no way that that little pump can supply enough volume for 700hp, be it at the crank or the wheels. When you start to make that king of power you need volume as well as preasure. Also here in AZ where you are lucky to get temps under 100 at midnight and the air is at 4500 feet you need it all the time.If the 340 or double pumper could supply enough fuel to make that kind of power than why are most other cars using turbo's and superchargers using big pumps like the Aromotive/paxtons. Time to think outside of the box.I have had care using turbo's making 700 , 1000 , and finally over 1400hp. There is no way I would not use -10 feeds, good regulators .If you can great, but you are running on a ragged edge .

 

[Racetronix]

Re: Fuel systems

clean86,

I agree. A single Walbro GSS340 fuel pump supporting 700+FWHP on a Buick V6 with factory lines and normal voltage... NOT. A double pump…. yes if made correctly! Since I have not finished R&D on the double pump setup I will not comment on its potential HP support although it should be as good or better than what is currently on the market. Some motors are more efficient than a Buick's. Depending on the BSFC of the motor, fuel pressure and a few other factors 700FWHP is obtainable with a single GSS340 and the proper supporting hardware. Some of our customers are not too far off from that mark now with LS1 motors but I do not expect that from a Buick.

Keep in mind volume and pressure go hand in hand. You need volume to maintain pressure and you need pressure to maintain volume through a given resistance to flow. Similar principals apply to current and voltage. Going too large on a fuel system increases its internal volume which can create other problems. The idea is to keep the resistance to flow down and keep the velocity and recovery time up. This is why we are able to flow so much through the lines on some of the newer cars. The new plastic lines have molded bends and less internal friction. Some of the snap lock fittings are less restrictive than the tapered end steel line and rubber hose junctions used in the older cars such as the Buick.

Why do some shops use large external pumps on cars that produce HP within the support range of a single or double in-tank unit??? Education, availability, profit... I asked the same question of a few dealers before they started installing Racetronix fuel systems in their customer’s cars. Now only a small percentage of cars that are beyond the support range of the double pump systems have their tanks sumped, lines replaced, fuel rails fitted and pumps mounted under the car. They still use Racetronix wiring systems to keep the voltage up . I know of local dealers that still install large external pumps with all the hardware in cars making under 400RWHP or less even though they know a Walbro will do the job. Why? Money! Why sell a customer a $150 pump and wire harness when you can sell him a $250.00 pump with $200.00+ lines and hardware etc plus much labor. The customer usually buys in either because he does not know any better and most people assume bigger is better or they like the look of lines hanging out from under the car to make people think that something ominous is lurking under the hood.

Many Corvette and F-body owners use Racetronix fuel systems because they maintain the function of the factory fill bucket / module which prevents pump cavitation under heavy Gs / cornering. This function is generally lost when sumping a tank for an external pump unless special baffles are made or a fuel cell is installed. Certain tracks have very tight rules when it comes to external pumps as there have been cases where lines have been severed and fires broke out.

Good regulators and upgraded lines are used without question where required.

G’ nite…

Jack
Racetronix

PS. Here is some food for thought in this thread. Please keep in mind that this car has fuel volume to spare and has yet to be maxed out. There are others that have exceeded this HP level but this post is most interesting as it is turbo related. http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=80801

This car uses our single 1998 LS1 F-body kit.
http://www.racetronix.com/rx-f1ls1-gss340m-fpk-a.html

 

[ALBERTAN]

A couple of thoughts from someone who knows little but did hours of research for his 800 HP Typhoon build.

• The Walbros are awesome pumps, rated to go to the high 10's on a Buick. But you have to ask yourself, since your goal is high 10's, if you want to try it on a pump you are going to run at its limit. I cannot stress enough the importance of the fuel system on these cars. I try to make sure my fuel system is rated at least 100 HP higher than I plan to go. I like a safety buffer, and if the pump is rated to 700 HP then I'll let someone else verify that rating. Lean=KAPOW!
  
• The double pumper is a good setup that can definitely get you into the range you are looking for. To me they are ridiculously expensive from a vendor for what you are getting. They can be made yourself, and in fact I believe there are good instructions on the Net. But, they use a Hobbs switch and I believe that switch is their weak point. All it takes is one WOT blast where the switch fails and it have catastrophic events. We are talking about a fuel system failure that takes the engine with it. In the end, while it is true that the double pumper will handle your goals easily, you have to ask yourself whether you are comfortable using that setup. I wasn't.
  
• External pumps are certainly more noisy than internal ones. That can be a good or bad thing. I like noisy fuel pumps and big turbos snorting back through big mouth air setups on the street. That's just me. The lowest-rated Aeromotive A-1000 is in the Syclone I am taking to the Nationals tomorrow. It is expected to run 10s there. Mind you its also got a completely redone fuel system. We didn't just drop the pump in.

 

[Nick Micale]

Originally posted by Racetronix
Nick,

..........When I see posts such as yours that state "Get a real HP pump." and "Stay tuned for a couple "slightly" used double pumpers for sale soon!" I feel that it is harsh even though I can see some humor in it. For every negative story you could post about a single or double pump failing to perform I could post one about an external pump that has failed in some fashion. It is not the pumps that are at issue here but rather the application. This is why I started development on a new double pump setup a while back. After looking at the currently available product on the market I saw room for improvement. ........

Jack, let me give you the reason for double pumper comment. The one on my desk, from a well known vendor, uses the stock hanger. As you well know, the pipe inlet is necked down to ~1/4". This is not able to provide an adaquate amount of flow even with 2 pumps. There is NO humor is a $3000 engine repair due to lack of fuel from an expensive DP.

If you are doing a DP set up, this must be addressed, and am sure you will. My other main concern in 15 year-old Buicks, is the delivery system, lines, fittings, hoses, etc. These items are aging, being bent, crimped and therefore hinder flow.

My reason for the initial post was to alert owners wanting to produce enough HP to go easy 10's, the stock fuel system, including the double pumpers could likely not deliver enough fuel in all conditions. For someone that has spent thousands of dollars on an engine, a few hundred dollars more for a proper fuel system is in order.

The theory behind the double pumper is good if executed properly. However, for a track car, there is more of a possibility that something will fail due to the added complexity. I know you generally are talking about street cars, but I want to cover both cases. If a high output external pump fails you lose a race, if the second pump fails to come on, you lose a motor.

As far as later F-bodies, they are a different animal, and as you said have much improved fuel delivery systems. As such are not really applicable in this discussion.

You certainly have LOTS of good info concerning fuel pumps, and it is always important it be shared with the community. My suggestion to you would be to look a little further into the entire turbo Buick fuel delivery system to assure the work your pump can and will do, is available for use where needed, at the injectors.

 

[Racetronix]

Nick,

The tapered lines on the sending unit are one of the major design issues I have been addressing on the new DP setup. I keep asking myself “how much modification can I expect the customer to do and yet still consider the system plug & play?” The lines in front of the motor are another major problem. Do I include these with the kit? People are complaining about spending $500.00 on a DP system already so where do I draw the line? Perhaps offer the kit in stages?

Regardless if you have a double pump setup or an external setup, testing the fuel system’s capacity before you start pushing the car is always a smart idea. I start off by flowing the fuel from the fuel rail. I use to use a bucket and a stop watch but now I use a digital flow meter with totalizing counter. I adjust the fuel pressure regulator to the pressure expected under WOT. Using a valve I adjust the opening until the fuel pressure is on the threshold of falling below the regulator set point. This will provide a ballpark idea as to how well the system will flow before you even start the car. I use a regulated supply to stabilize the electrical system to more closely approximate vehicle operating voltage under WOT. A battery charger can be used but that is not as stable. I monitor pump voltage and current demand while these tests are being done. If the WOT test checks OK I run the pumps for a few hours as a burn-in test and then re-check the WOT spec. Once the system has checked out I take the car for a drive and slowly ease into the throttle to make sure that the A/F and FP is stable. To throw any new fuel system into a car and then take the car out and beat on it is asking for trouble. I personally always ease into my car when setting up for a pass so I can monitor fuel pressure, A/F and boost levels.

In my experience when these large external pumps start to fail they don’t simply shut down. In fact most of the time their flow capacity is reduced which would net the same result as the secondary pump failing to come on in a DP system. The in-line pumps that I have seen shut down were usually seized from winter season moisture contamination. I have seen Walbro pumps suffer the same fate. The in-line pumps with reduced capacity that I have inspected have had damaged impellers, seals let go, motor windings come lose, motor brushes, contacts and bearings fail. Some of these failures were caused by adverse operating conditions and for some it was a QC issue. I should note that Aeromotive has had a very good track record and I recommend their products on a regular basis.

The Hobbs switch could be a possible source of failure although I personally have not been notified of any failures on my systems to date. I do test them before they are shipped out. A few people have told me on this board that they have had issues with them. One member told me he had one DOA! Someone was not doing their homework there. There are a few different series of Hobbs switches. I always use the better models in my systems. I also instruct the user not to adjust the Hobbs switch too much as they have a limited reliable adjustment range. Too lose or too tight on the Hobbs adjustment screw can cause them to operate erratically and possibly damage the switch. It is always best to select the model that is within the pressure range required in your application. I am considering a MAP based electronic controller for the Racetronix DP system as an alternative to a mechanical switch. In cars where the return line has been upgraded the secondary pump can be run full time thereby eliminating the switching requirement on the secondary pump. Back in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s we used in-line Bosch 286 pumps. A new -6 or -8 fuel feed line was installed and the factory feed line was used as a return line.

In my experience a properly designed DP unit will have no trouble supplying enough fuel on a TR to go bottom 10s. Other restrictions or vehicle specific problems are separate from this equation as they would adversely affect an in-line external pump given the same situation. If someone wants to be 100% certain that the factory components will not hinder them from reaching their flow requirements then I recommend they cut the tapered portion of the sending unit’s tubes off and mount AN fittings, replace the feed with -8 and the return with -6 and replace the factory fuel filter with a quality but inexpensive filter system (ie. Permacool). This way the DP will benefit from all the same things that an external pump would have working in its favor.

I have been working with Buick fuel systems for many years and I am aware of the weak spots in the system. Trying to design a system that would address all possible areas of degradation as oppose to just its base restrictions would drive the price of the kit through the roof. There has to be some determination on the customer’s part as to which fuel system components have been compromised and address them accordingly.

I like the fact that this thread is back on track and has a positive tone to it. This is the way it should be.

Jack
Racetronix

 

[The Radius Kid]

I like these kinds of threads.You guys are both right.If the execution is done properly,both styles of fuel delivery can be quite effective.It all comes down to how much aggravation the installer/user wants to put up with and how much regular use the system gets.