Hard luck for Caspers electronics....
- Thread starter turbosam6
- Start date
Red Regal T
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Where you have it all wrong is assuming that because it is illegal makes it immoral or even in the best interests of anyone. I personally make no challenge to the legality or illegality of products like this. I challenge the very law and its motivations.
Fact is that we have the cleanest air since the EPA has been keeping records. L.A. has cleaner air today than it did in the 1950s, and now there are millions more cars on the road.
Fact is that you can take any smog ILLEGAL manifold (and a number of other parts)from say holley, edelbrock, etc and install it on a car that requires for example EGR. No different than installing an o2 sim meant for off road vehicles knowing some will me installed on vehicles on the road. Everyone into cars knows someone with a holley or edelbrock NON carb legal part on a car that falls under CARB jurisdiction. My old 1989 Firebird was an edelbrock catalog for non smog legal parts. They went after caspers because caspers was an easy target for some tree hugging Marxist to feel good about themselves.
Fact is that there is a huge Eco industrial complex that has its best interest in promoting that there is a problem with the environment. Lets not forget the Socialist motivations behind trying to stifle private business and human production in general.
Fact is that every day the arguments for the Make-Believe that is man made global warming grow weaker and weaker but the claims made by the man made global warming believers become more desperate and apocalyptic, if its hot its global warming, if its cold its global warming, if it rains its global warming, if its dry its global warming. Mainstream belief of global warming is like seeing the Emperors New Clothes.
Using the logic that an o2 sim is going to be used for an "illegal" purpose and thus wrong one could also use the logic that any horsepower beyond that which to accelerate safely to the speed limit is only going to be an accessory to break laws. You don't need 500 hp in a street car if you plan on obeying traffic laws but the new corvette Z06 meant for street use comes with it from the factory. GM and the general public have no notion that the several thousand corvettes produced each year are only going to be used on a race track. They are knowingly being an accessory to law breakers
This is why no nation can tolerate absolute enforcement of all of its laws. Some have tried and they usually end up having to kill a few million people to conform (see the former USSR, Cambodia, etc) It's the reason why we are supposed to be enforcing the spirit and not the letter of the law. If you want to enforce the letter of every law your very existence is criminal from the minute you wake up in the morning with the staggering number of laws on the books.
Reading things like the above remind me why the USA is toast and the constitution is dead. People have been taught to value the common good more than individual freedoms and have forgotten that the government is a slave to our wishes and not the other way around.
PABLO .. thanks for high-lighting the REAL BOTTOM LINE! Elitists in the government want to control every action of the people. Did someone say the government strongarmed Casper's ? You better believe it. America's freedoms are being taken away. It's getting worse and worse ... FAST!
WTF? You need to re-read what I put before you comment. And Im old enough to do 2 combat tours and work at a Dealership fixing cars fo a living, But thanks for asking.
Like I said re-read everything before you post. I never mentioned anything as far as companies paying for research to the DOT for smog legal stuff.
This post is getting rediculous. Nobody is seeing the big picture and has a one way mentality.
Good luck to Casper's. I will not be sending any "donation" to them but I will take a second look at there products and try to purchase what I need to help them out.
Im done with this thread.
I'm sorry but your reply eariler lead me to the conclusion you had the two confused...
You're right, the DOT has nothing to do with this subject. I got the impression you had the two confused after reading your earllier post. It suggested Casper broke the law simply because they did not spend the money on testing parts. The EPA is guided by laws and see only in black and white: It's against Federal law to remove or tamper with a vehicle's emessions devices. So throwing money into testing for the EPA would be a waste. Now the DOT on the other hand demands testing before given the green light.
The reply in which I'm referring to...
Yes sir, I read that post many times before replying to it. But I can't remember the mention of age or any Millitary info.
AMAZING!!!! Some people will never learn. Even with what Casper's had to deal with, others are still testing the EPA.
ZZ Performance
ZZ Performance
Oxygen Sensor Simulator (97' - Current)
Rear O2 Simulator: 3800 Performance
ZZ Performance
ZZ Performance
Oxygen Sensor Simulator (97' - Current)
Rear O2 Simulator: 3800 Performance
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
John Spina I have only one question for you.
Did SEMA help you out with any of this or were you on your own?
Sorry to hear about all of this.
Did SEMA help you out with any of this or were you on your own?
Sorry to hear about all of this.
I've talked to SEMA at length, and their thing is to support the automakers any way the see fit. The "big three" or however many there are, are the entities that pave the way for their interests. The aftermarket is sort of in the middle. And, the O2 SIM rested in the gray area, so SEMA couldn't offer any support as the EPA makes (and modifies) the rules.
This is the tip of the iceberg. I fear of what is to be in the automotive aftermarket. I was even told that replacing fuel injectors is considered an EPA offense and they intend to go after any company who sells injectors! What next? And will SEMA back up the aftermarket? I have my doubts...
This is the tip of the iceberg. I fear of what is to be in the automotive aftermarket. I was even told that replacing fuel injectors is considered an EPA offense and they intend to go after any company who sells injectors! What next? And will SEMA back up the aftermarket? I have my doubts...
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
I would think that the EPA has far greater concerns than Caspers and your " polluting ways ". Here we sit with a Republican President that is so receptive to any oil company request they can think of and you get picked to be the example of the EPAs stringent rules on pollution control. Wow.
It's to late John, your case was the one they should have fought. The sad truth about this world, is no one wants to help unless it's dirrectly effects them and nothing else. This case INDIRRECTLY effected people like SEMA and Edelborck. It was easier for the EPA to attack a smaller company like your self than some of your bigger aftermarket parts companies. Now because of your lose, those same big companies are left wide open to attacks by the EPA. This could go on forever.
Mike Licht
I was here first
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
IMO there was no way this case would have been won no matter who got involved. Regardless of what the intent of the product was, the inescapable fact is that it allowed an intergal part of the emissions system to be removed from the car. Unplug the O2 sensor, car runs bad with check engine light, install sim (short for SIMULATOR) light goes out, car runs good, but with NO monitor system in place. If something did go wrong you would never know since the sim kept putting out a happy signal. This completly defeats the pourpose of it being there. It is sad and in my view wrong since in the real world, with proper use it was a good product, but these are the facts.
Mike
Mike
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
Maybe John did not prove his point well enough or maybe the EPA just did not want to see it. And yes I have to concede that the SIM was meant to defeat the ECM from monitoring itself. Even if there was a benefit to using the SIM.
The reason I asked about SEMA is this. SEMA was meant to be the lobbying body for the aftermarket not just the Detroit 3. It is meant to protect and lobby for large and small businesses. I am reading the full page ad in Car Craft on how HID lights maybe outlawed on older cars in certain states. And I am supposed to be impressed that SEMA is fighting for us in this respect.
I do know this. If Caspers had the resources to employ a legal team the same size that GM or Edelbrock could, Caspers would have tied this up for so long that a new administration would have been voted in and the case would have gone to a non binding resolution, Caspers would have admitted no wrong doing, and paid a small fine.
Worse yet, if the EPA decides to crack down on hot rodders and the businesses that sell to them, this type of argument could be used against much bigger things that are close to us. It is a slippery slope they can use here and I hope it does not become widely used against the performance industry. I agree that the performance industry must conform to the rules just like everyone else should. I do think that it can be done and there are some smart people out there that can do both.
I'm of a different opinion Mike. The EPA held John personaly responcible for other people's actions. We've seen cases like this envolving the Tobacco and Gun industry for years. So when does it become the responcibillity of the person buying the cigs or the guy killing people? This gets me back to the subject of Edelbrock. The EPA went after someone small to help shield the issues from the Media. I think an attack on someone like Edelbrock would have made a few headlines.
UNDER-PRESSURE
..... Member .....
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2006
When has Edelbrock marketed a product with the sole purpose of tricking an OBDII computer controlled car & removing emissions equipment to function? They spend a ton of money to research & develop products that are PROVEN to increase HP & remain emission legal. Believe it or not it is possible to make big HP without tampering with emissions controls.
The EPA has been monitoring vehicle emessions years before the introduction of O2 Sensors and Cat-Converters. Now some of these devices may not seem much but are infact EPA emession controlled devices. You will find some are limited to older vehicles while others are still used on current vehicles today. One of these devices is an EGR Valve.
Definition: The EGR valve is the main emissions control component in the exhaust gas recirculation system. The valve is located on the intake manifold, and opens a small passageway between the exhaust and intake manifold to allow a metered amount of exhaust to flow back into the engine. This reduces combustion temperatures and helps control the formation of oxides of nitrogen.
Edelbrock:They build manifolds that delete the EGR Valve.
example: from their web site - Edelbrock.com - Manifolds - Chevrolet - Small Block - Performer
Performer EPS
Performer EPS (non-EGR) w/ Polished finish #27011*
Performer EPS (non-EGR) w/ PermaStar finish #27012*
Performer EPS (non-EGR) w/ EnduraShine finish #27014*
Just a sample of manifolds built by Edelbrock to delete the EGR valve. The same thing on products built by the same company to defeat other EPA emession controlled devices.
UNDER-PRESSURE
..... Member .....
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2006
What about all the emission legal parts Edelbrock develops that retain the egr valve & all emission controls with certification? It looks like you failed to see those?? Pick the correct manifold & parts for the correct year vehicle & enjoy emission legal performance.
So what about all those manifolds that retain the EGR? You act like the EPA should give them a Good Guy burger for making legal manifolds along with their illegal manifolds. The fact of the matter is they're breaking the law by producing illegal manifolds period! Sure they build legal manifolds. I failed to report this simply because you did not ask how they was obeying the law. This is common sence knowledge. Instead you questioned my opinion about how Edelbrock was breaking the law. Sorry I miss understood you.
UNDER-PRESSURE
..... Member .....
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2006
How are they building illegal manifolds???? You put the correct manifold on the correct model year vehicle. Not too hard to do!! They sell intakes that fit 1955 sbc's - 1995+ sbc's, should they all be the same?? You must have tried to put a 4v intake on your GN if you don't see the differance.
These kinds of lessons are usually learned in pre school. Just because the round peg fit's in the square hole doesn't mean it's correct. :biggrin:
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
How are they building illegal manifolds???? You put the correct manifold on the correct model year vehicle. Not too hard to do!! They sell intakes that fit 1955 sbc's - 1995+ sbc's, should they all be the same?? You must have tried to put a 4v intake on your GN if you don't see the differance.
BECAUSE THE PRODUCTS STATE FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY JUST LIKE THE O2 SIMS DID. GET IT?