HELP, Running like crap

[snomachman]

Hello everyone, this is my first time here and I could use your expertise and experince.
,Put my car back on the road and runs like crap. Rough Idle at 800 rpm smooths out at 1200 rpm. I get a steady knock when warms up.It seem deep (maybe a bad connecting rod) or lifter.Not to sure can't hear it after 1000 rpm.When I drive it and give her throttle she starts to ping. I back off and accelerate slow and no problem. Things that were checked or replaced. New crank sensor,New O2 sensor,new fuel pump.Last year. This year, drained old gas,changed fuel filter,put in some injector cleaner additive in tank,change plug wires & new plugs.Bought code reader only 12 comes up.(Good). Unplugged Knock sensor (no change), thought maybe problem with cam sensor (tested ok), didn't test T.P.S. sensor this year but was ok last year. Where do I go from here? Next thing I'm going to try is a propane test around the intake (maybe got a air leak), Also trying to find out the best way to test injectors. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Sno

 

[dragonational]

Welcome Sno. Did you check the coil pack? You may want to check it and see they go bad for no apparent reason it seems. My 84 would do about the same thing. Changed the coil pack and it fixed most of my problems. I am sure you will get more replies soon. Hope this helps. Harry.

 

[onefastcar]

Go even farther back check to make sure the alternator is putting out enough volts, with all the electronics not getting a good supplied voltage car will run like cr** and doesn't cost anything to check at your local autozone and will eliminate one thing anyhow, if you do not have a scantool get one scanmaster will help you by seeing what is happening and help you trace problems and save money by not throwing parts at it.

 

[snomachman]

Thanks onefastcar,whats the best way to check coil pak,Dragonational I did have a problem with the alternator and I changed my ground cable, my alternator put out 14.5 volts, would this be enough for the electronics? Thanks guys I really appreciate the help.
I have had this car since 1999 and have only driven it for about 100 miles, it is in very rough shape, needs a total body make over (needs to be Foosed up) until the I'll keep plugging away. I did some more troubleshooting yesterday, changed grounds,checked timing,checked TPS, it does run better but after 1/4 throttle she pings like crazy.

87 GN stock as they come, Snomachman

 

[hrhoward]

Greetings,
Don't know if this will fix your woes but while your messing around under there might as well check and replace your vac lines. Just a thought.

 

[1970gsx]

To test the coil pack, put an OHM meter between the terminals of each coil pack (there are three). Each pack should measure between 11k and 13k ohms. If it's higher the coil pack is bad.

 

[snomachman]

Thanks 1970gsx,hrhoward will do that , wish me luck , I need a break this is driving me crazy lol.

 

[snomachman]

87 Grand National------------------Bone Stock—70,000 miles on it--------------------------Member Snomachman

Problems- Rough Idle, when driving after 1/8 throttle and hitting hard on accelerator she starts pinging bad. Also knock when warm at idle, don’t hear it after 1200 rpm. (Maybe bad lifter or connecting rod).

Troubleshooting-

1. Timing- did the 1.45 inch tape on timing mark (to the left facing engine) and went to t.d.c. # 1 cylinder. Then put the new mark at 0 on tab and checked cam sensor with meter (do not have scan tool yet, but will in the future). Turned clockwise and had 7 + volts then counter clockwise till zero. Secured cam sensor in place. Engine would not start moved sensor clockwise very little then it would start. It didn’t seem to go the way I read it, did I screw up? Also about 3 years ago I had changed the water pump and also checked the timing chain and everything looked good.
2. Fuel- New fuel pump installed a year or 2 ago- This year drained fuel tank and filled up with 91 octane and added fuel injector cleaner to tank. Changed fuel filter (very dirty).I ran the engine for a while and checked my headers by spark plugs and all were very hot, so I’m thinking my injectors are ok.Did not check fuel pressure( trying to make up a gauge)What should it be?( Where I live its limited to access parts and equipment, I’m way up in Northern Manitoba and my Buddy the polar bear is only 150 miles away.LOL)
3. Electrical- New crank sensor over a year ago and also new O2 sensor, new plugs and wires this year (old plugs very sooty) using stock plugs #44 gapped at 45 from Buick manual(Yes the BIG ONE from Buick). Changed my ground wires had a problem with alternator and after repairing grounds have 14.5 volts at idle. Is this enough? Also I keep blowing fuses for my dash lights which I will tackle when the engine is running good. TPS test good. Have a GM code reader and the only code I get is 12 (System okay). I never got any codes or engine light on unless I was testing sensors, then erased that code. Un plugged Knock sensor no change in performance. Did not check coil paks, but will do that today.
4. Vacuum hose & airleaks- Check vacuum hoses, looks good. Changed a few. I have 1 place where the sensor on the left valve cover towards the rad (looking at from front) I believe one hose goes to the intake after the intercooler before the turbo. There is another nipple sticking out with no hose on it. Does anybody know what this is for?
5. EGR- did not test this yet but did a leak test with propane all around intake manifold and no change in idle. If this is screwed up could it cause this many problems? Read that if you pinch hose off and run engine to see if there is a difference also vacuum canister do the same, I will try this today.
So where do I go from here, I only have a 100 plus miles on this car, the body is rough and need extensive work, so every year I pull it out in the spring and try to get it running right. When its mechanically sound then I’ll give her a makeover. Before I make it look good, I want her to run good. Your help is appreciated Sno-

 

[VadersV6]

Are you guys kidding me? The guy says "it has a knock", and you tell him to check the coil packs? WTF?
I would bet you didnt adjust the crank sensor properly. Its probably hitting the ring. Did you make sure the sensor is gapped on both sides of the ring? Get a business card and rip it in half. Then fold each one of the halves. Thats about the right thickness. Shove the folded cards in the gap on both sides of the sensor, and tighten it down.

 

[onefastcar]

Really could be a 100 things car sat for 7 years ran for a 100 miles over that period of time and has multiple things changed, lets start over after you changed each part did you see if it helped or did you just change all parts in the event one would fix GET A SCANTOOL LIKE EITHER SCANMASTER OR TURBOLINK with the parts already changed you could have bought one, this will help us to afford you better diagnosis instead of the throw parts at it approach, start with checking compression first and go from there let us know what the results are.

 

[dragonational]

the reason i said to check the coil pack is he said it is running like crap and then after a 1/4 throttle it pings and knocks. Thats the same thing that mine did i changed my coil pack and replaced some vac lines and had no more problems. with it being bone stock i take it that it means he didnt crank up the boost and there for that is probably not the problem. We are giving him things to check thats all. This site is about help after all. Sno there are alot of guys on here that have alot of knowledge. I have limited, but i am sure you will find the help you need here i know i have. Good luck man. Harry

 

[snomachman]

Okay , things I did today ( One of them was order a scantool) thanks Onefastcar,
Checked my coil pak and came out good (between 11 & 13 ohms)
Also checked vac lines, everything seems good there
Thanks Dragonational

Also today I reset my IAC, readjusted my TPS, bought a fuel injector pressure gauge, with vaccum line off running at 38 PSI, which is good for the stock 30 PSI injectors I have.

VadersV6: I do have a knock at idle, as I said it may be a rod or lifter, but I've had problems on different vehicles with this before, this doesn't explain all the pinging and detonation I'm getting, I will check the crank sensor again, if the crank sensor is out of adjustment will this cause my pinging and rough idle problems?

I'm 42 years old and have had alot of cars who's engines I have rebuilt, 74 Nova SS, 67 Impala, 76 Trans-Am, and numerous others. I'm old school, I'm not used to all the fancy sensors and injectors, I'm also certified in small engine's and had my own business, so you can teach an old dog new tricks.

I'm a fast learner, I know how to turn a wrench, but that's why I came here because I heard that you guys have alot of knowledge, and I'm looking for some.

Thanks alot guys, Sno

 

[VadersV6]

Well, it depends if what you're hearing is really pinging. Are you getting knock retard? When I got my car, the crank sensor was loose and getting banged around. It sounded almost like rod knock. I was scared. I started the car up on jackstands, got underneath it, and lo and behold, the sound was coming from the interrupter ring hitting the sensor. Plus it was causing drivability problems. It was running really rough. I had a whole host of reasons for why it ran rough, but this improved it.

 

[onefastcar]

Right now its all speculation don't throw any more money in the engine wait till the scan tool arrives and we can all make a lot better guesses on hard data. believe you me my scantool has saved me some moola and a lot of heartache great machine its not like my 69 skylark though whole different animal.

 

[VadersV6]

Right now its all speculation don't throw any more money in the engine wait till the scan tool arrives and we can all make a lot better guesses on hard data. believe you me my scantool has saved me some moola and a lot of heartache great machine its not like my 69 skylark though whole different animal.

Yeah a scan tool is very important, but it wont tell you if the crank sensor and cam sensor signals are out of whack.

 

[onefastcar]

On 4 vacuum hose there should be a hose from that sensor which is called your boost controller it goes to the wastgate actuator. the other hose senses turbo boost, the sensor will control the wastegate opening and closing which allows more or less boost.
this could be a potential problem if boost was over stock level without extra fuel being delivered (blown head gasket).stock boost on this car is approx. 13psi.

On 5 yes pinch or remove and plug if it makes a difference yes could very well be bad.

One question did any change you make affect the way the vehicle ran one way or the other.

A step by step process is in order a lot has happened ie. replaced a lot of parts and all things need to be rechecked i agree you or i do not know the situation and what was involved of his decisions on changing and how it affected the set-up, i'm sure you will agree this ain't grandpas buick and these cars can frustrate lets hear the whole story and hear more info.BTW not to get off subject but i got a t+ coming how do ya feel about the extender chip and are you using all the adjustable factors that come with it.

 

[snomachman]

Compression approx. 135 each cylinder, excellent spark, new plugs and wires, I noticed a lot of guys are using 42 & 43 plugs, my stock calls for 44 and a gap of 45 is this because I'm bone stock and can run a hot plug like this?

That Turbo question is very interesting, I am also having electrical problems with my dash lights and also when I turn on my headlights my rpm gauge and boost guage (led) go out.
My boost guage is reading very high (20 +)when the head lights are off. So I'm thinking maybe that some how my wastegate is opening to far.
What if the guage is right and I'm running 20 psi with a stock pump and stock injectors ,and stomping on the pedal, what would the engine do (PING<PING<PING<PING) sounds to me that could be it. What do you guys think Sno-

 

[onefastcar]

If that is what is happening you will do damage to the motor, sounds like major detonation. There are a couple things you must decide, will this be a dd a weekend warrior or a drag car, based on that look at what goals you want to accomplish12 sec car maybe.Here is a list of things i would do regardless of what you decide on what the car will be.
1Buy a set of plugs and gap at 35 thou for stock

2 if stock fuel pump is in car, replace with a wallboro 340

3 buy a fuel pump hot wire kit (voltage supply was barely adequate)

4 go to gnttype.org and read up on car a lot of good info (When site is finally up and running)

5 already in progress i assume fuel pressure gauge (see system is operational and for possible adjustments)

6 Some type of fuel pressure regulator.

7 Check injectors for any clogged pintle (easy enough to check and if ya bust an oring they can be bought at a local shop oh yea buy some oring lube for reinstallation, if ya do this wait approx. 1 hr after car has been run for fuel pressure to leak down)

8 Someone may have a boost cotroller on the car if ya want i will take a pic of my car engine to see how vacuum hoses are routed for boost solenoid after this is fixed, do not run over 15 pounds boost about max with a stock injector (you may have a heavy duty waste gate acctuator also)

9 check grounds in dash and connections PIA, just me maybe but i like all stuff working on car, and eventually these will become problems later on.

Looks like approx. 300 for the stuff i mentioned, but its worth it. Jack cotton, kirbans, gbodyparts, postons can all supply these parts and are all good peoples. What year is this car could make a difference on info given?

 

[snomachman]

This is going to be a dd. So from what you tell me I believe I have a boost problem.I will check the hoses on the sensor to the wastegate.

I will gap the plugs at 35.

I won't be changing the fuel pump yet. I tested this one I am in the specs calling for stock.

I will look at my grounds after I get it running right.

I also checked my rockers and valves seem to be okay openning and closing.As for taking off the valve covers off this thing I would like to give the engineers a kick in the ass. LOL

A pic would be great. Thanks

As for the timing method I read about. I'm a little confused. Can you direct me to a site where they explain this more thorough.

As to doing some upgrades, I plan to down the road, but I want to get it running good and get the body done. Then I'll start putting goodies on it.

Thanks again onefastcar.I'll head out and get started on this.....Sno-

 

[onefastcar]

I'll take a pic for ya when i get outta the S*** hole approx. 4pm est.
Check this site out, guy knows his stuff, check out tech and pics at top is cam and crank sensor!

http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/