hyd. roller lifters on a cast iron hyd roller camshaft??

[RobinLBuddi]

Hello! I'm actually from the RealOldsPower forum, and recently had a problem with a Mondello/Engle hyd roller camshaft failure and was told to check out this site as there was a big problem for you GN, GNX, and TR guys just a while back.
I went exactly by the book with this motor, and spring pressures were exactly as recommended. 140 lbs max @ seated, and 340 lbs max @ open. Only 7K miles on this master rebuild with many mods, when I find that every single lobe had about a 1/16 inch groove wiped out of it (same width of lifter bearing) There was also a bronze cam spacer and thrust bolt button used on this, but cam still was not centered correctly, almost looks like it is centered for flat tappet lifters. I don't know if this forum supports posting pictures but I'll give it a shot. If not, there will be a link here instead. Check it out!!

Some have said that it looks like Mondello had sent me a cast iron core flat tappet cam which was supposed to be a 8620 billet steel hyd roller camshaft, that is what I'd paid for. Mondello is notorious for ripping people off, but I didn't learn this until after the purchase was made. "If I only had known then, what I know now". The way I am being told by many people is that, hydraulic roller lifters are not compatible with cast iron core camshafts, it will work for those with low spring pressures, but where is the line drawn at? Any and all input regarding this subject would be very much appreciated.

Thanks a million!!!
Robin L. Buddi

 

[The Radius Kid]

Do a search in the tech section[here] for "econo rollers".
That should get it.

 

[gnsrule]

It sure looks like a flat tapet cam too me. Roller cams are distinkly differnt w/ a copper colord core...unless it is a budget roller as previously stated.

 

[Intercooler]

Budget roller

 

[The Radius Kid]

I gotta learn to look at the pictures sometimes.
That cam is definately cast[look between the lobes].
Billet?
You've been robbed!
That's not just my personal opinion,that's my *Professional* opinion as well[read my bio].
They owe you large if that cam in the picture was stated to be billet.

 

[WFO]

that's not even a roller lobe on a cast core,look at the base circle.looks like he sent you his standard flat tappet cam .you got hosed.

 

[RobinLBuddi]

Thanks for the response, I surely do appreciate it. I'd spent about $5000 to rebuild this motor, that's with all the machine work and everything. So yeah, as you can imagine, I'm less than pleased to have this happen with only 7K on it. I'll never do buisiness with Mondello Performance ever again, and I would also strongly suggest for people to steer clear of that place. I've recently learned that they, in fact, have many priors for this sort of thing. Just pure and simple bad buisiness practice.
Anyways, I'm not real knowledgable on camshafts, at least to be able to decipher what the differences are between a mechanical roller, and hydraulic roller. Can anyone here possibly shed some light on the subject? I would most certainly appreciate any/all help that I can get.
Another question, isn't there some sort of limitations as far as what kind of spring pressure can be used when running hyd roller lifters on a cast iron hyd roller camshaft? Or would you say that using hyd roller lifters on a cast iron camshaft core just a bad idea alltogether?
This camshaft was Mondellos item no. "RH-6-14", and is advertised as being a hydraulic roller. However, a lot of people that have seen these pics are all saying that this looks like a flat tappet cam. Having said that, how does one tell the difference between hydraulic roller and flat tappet?
I'm just a little confused yet, but I'm trying to understand all of this stuff. But have no fear, I'm a fast learner, so it shouldn't take too long, .....I hope. (lol!)

Thanks a million!!!
Robin L. Buddi

 

[G-Racer]

Have you asked Mondello what may have happened?

 

[Nick Micale]

Like what was said above, check with the person that sold you the cam kit. That damage would be due to miss-matched, improper or defective parts, not break-in procedures or hard useage. If you bought a complete kit from them and did the install/break-in according to their instructions, they should do something for you?

The ductile iron roller cam has a recommended spring pressure of ~110#'S. A billet roller can go from 135#'S and up depending on grind and use.

If the cam is cast iron, it should not be used with rollers in any situation.

 

[RobinLBuddi]

Yes, I had contacted Lynn at Mondello and explained the situation of what happened, also asked him what alloy this core was supposed to be, he said cast iron. His response as to what happened was "you must have valve guides biting the valves, cuz we sell 25 to 50 camshafts a day and have never had one do as you've described."
Today, I called Engle and they told me that this particlular cam is, in fact, a cast iron flat tappet camshaft. ( Hmmm??!!) , ...I then told him that Mondello sold me this cam as a hydraulic roller and even has it listed at their web site along with the spring recommendations; 140 lbs max @ seated, and 340 lbs max @ open

.........(then there was dead silence..........

He told me that there is no way this cam could run with those spring pressures, point blank! (Geez, .....ya think?)

What's up with that? I have a real hard time after hearing that.

Thanks!
Robin

 

[The Radius Kid]

Woo hoo!
That's it guys,your valve guides were "biting" the stems.
THAT'S why all those econo rollers failed.
How'd we miss that one?
That cam you've got there was definately intended for hydraulic flat tappet only.
The Econo I checked,I wouldn't have even used for that.
So did Mondello tell what they're going to do FOR you,now that they've got your money and done TO you?

 

[750H.P.V6]

Robin,

You got had by the same crappy cam engineering that wiped out a bunch of Turbo Buick motors several years ago. Comp. Cams was the offending company that supplied these cams to the Buick community.

Mondello is giving you a bunch of crap. They obviously don't know anything about cams. I personally learned the hard way as you did. If you know anyone else unfortunate enough to buy one of these cams do them a favor and have them pull it out ASAP.

All these cams WILL FAIL there is no ifs ands or buts.

Sorry to hear about your motor failure.

Neal

 

[musclecar neal]

I wrote the folks at Mondello an email. They seem better than I expected. They tell me that olds has been using cast iron cores on roller cams since 1980. They offered to send me a cast iron roller cam free of charge for me to inspect. I have never seen a cast iron roller and think I will take them up on the offer to see what the heck it is. Here was the reply from them today.

Oldsmobile has put roller cams on cast cores since 1980. Send me your address and we'll send you a cam free of charge so that you can inspect it. We have had cast core rollers for 6 yrs with no failures that were not installer related.

Sounds like they are legit or ????

 

[The Radius Kid]

From what I've seen yes.
They used smaller ports and roller cams [cast] to get good power and intake velocity.
As best as I can tell,the cams Olds used had softer profiles and better cam material.
The aftermarket fell into the trap of trying to copy the factory cams using inferior materials on more agressive profiles.
It flat just doesn't work.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

SKREWED???

Looks like you may have an opportunity here. Take the free cam!
Find someone locally that has a CAM DOCTOR or other profile checking device and have them compared. Then you have the ammo to go after them for a COMPLETE engine rebuild.
The matl off the cam is now resident in the engine oiling system and WILL ruin another set of brgs, lifters, cam, etc if the engine is not 100% disassembled and cleaned!!
BTW, don't even think of re-using those lifters....
How did you pay for these parts?? CC co. may be able to help. Other avenues are ??
Damn! If they sell 25 to 50 cams a day, the Olds business must be really expanding!! And all along, I thot Olds was going out of business...Think how many others are getting SKREWED w/ the same nonsense!!
Time for world wide posting to every board you can find??

 

[RobinLBuddi]

Sorry about the long delay for me getting back to this post.

musclecar neal - I don't know where to start off, ...I guess, I can start out by first saying this; go to www.realoldspower.com , and run a search there using the word "Mondello", often times refered to as "Mondildo", or "Mondollar" (for obvious reasons). Then read through some of the stuff that has been posted there, look at how many people have been screwed over by them, and the numbers keep growing. While other than a few misc nuts and bolts that might cross ref over to be used in other brands of engines (ie:Chevy, Buick, Ford etc.); Mondello is a strictly Oldsmobile parts company. It is very important that you also keep in mind, that if one was to wonder if Mondello, or any other Olds parts vender, was a "good" or "bad" company, the folks over at www.realoldspower.com would surely be the right people to look up to find that information out. Mondello was a great company at one point in time when the owner Joe Mondello was runnin' things, then a guy named Lynn Welfringer somehow became the general manager, then it was all down hill from there. Here is another example of a less than satisfied customer: http://members.tripod.com/MT13/easter02/bitemempp.htm

Now, tell me this, ...who would ever, "in their right frame of mind", recommend valve spring pressures of 140#@closed and 340#@open on a cast iron hyd roller cam??? With that kind of pressure, steel hydraulic roller lifters would ultimately destroy the cast iron cam, wiping every lobe, no doubt. Lynn also says that it is a "must" to use of a bronze distributor gear with that cam, ...but why? If the cam is of a cast iron core, there is no need for a bronze dist gear at all.

Please understand, I really don't get off on bashing a parts vendor based on just my personal bad experience with them, you'll see that Mondello has been doing very bad buisiness, and it has been going on for some time now.

Of course Lynn will tell you that, "Oldsmobile has put roller cams on cast cores since 1980. Send me your address and we'll send you a cam free of charge so that you can inspect it...", Hey Neal, if he seriously wanted to send you a camshaft to inspect, then why didn't he take down your address right then and there?? He's using that "used car salesman" bit, trying to "okee-doke" ya. He's a snake in the grass bro, ...all buyers beware! Just wish I would've found realoldspower.com before I had ever made my mistake of purchasing from them.

musclecar neal - I can't help it but to ask you, what was the intent of your e-mail to Mondello to begin with??? I mean, for Lynn to have taken the defensive like that, and even going as far as telling you that he'd send you a camshaft free of charge, ..I'm just curious as to what you had said in your first inquiry to them, in order to get that response. Here's an example of why I ask: http://members.tripod.com/MT13/easter02/firstchance.htm

To sum it all up, I gotta call it, like I see it. Mondello has far too many priors of screwing their customers over. If you choose to buy from them, then that's your choice, but I tried to warn ya.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Thanks a million!!!
Robin

 

[The Radius Kid]

Here's one for you to check out;
www.schubeckracing.com
I don't know if you've ever heard of this guy,but he is well known in drag racing and especially top fuel.
I plan on using his cam/lifters on my next engine.
I also checked and he does lifters/cams for the Buicks as well[so he told me in a phone conversation].

 

[RobinLBuddi]

Radius Kid - Right on, bro!!! Yes, I have heard all good things about Schubeck. He's right up the with ol' Eddie Isky, and I've heard lots of good things about Iskys' cams too.

musclecar neal - (your quote) "Sounds like they are legit or ????" Well, after you read through some of the horror stories at www.realoldspower.com and check out the other links I've listed above, you may see differently.

(Your quote) "They tell me that olds has been using cast iron cores on roller cams since 1980. They offered to send me a cast iron roller cam free of charge for me to inspect. I have never seen a cast iron roller and think I will take them up on the offer to see what the heck it is."

Here, I'll give you a little preview of what they look like after only 7000 miles.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc20b3127cce947b3f0e47f80000000610

This is supposed to be a hydraulic roller camshaft, it was installed with their spacer and thrust button/bolt, and was centered properly when motor was built. Now, no matter if it's cast or not, it only looks like a flat tappet camshaft, because that's what it really is.

Here is link that will show you my copy of the invoice:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc34b3127cce94df445eecd70000001610

musclecar neal - I sure would like to hear back from ya...

Thanks!
Robin

 

[musclecar neal]

I agree 100% with the fact that a cast iron cam will not work with a steel roller lifter with those spring pressures. I have seen the pics of the cam in question and what I see is exactly what I would expect. Joe Mondello went to buy and run a small Vinyard and he is not around the shop anymore. I think what they are doing is just not right. When I went to the web site the cams they have pictured as hyd rollers are steel billet pieces. Yes the factory could use iron on the low spring pressures for stock cams and maybe get away with it, but the pressures needed to run the profiles they say they are using just wont work with an iron core. I wish I could talk to the cam supplier and ask them what Mondello says they are doing with these cams. The lobes have a flat tappet profile, not a roller lobe. It really scares me to hear that Lynn is saying you must use a bronze gear with this cam as thats the last thing you would want to use on an iron core. Just goes to show. Just because a guy says he knows what to do dosen't mean he does. I am on the case and tryng to get some info from some sources I have . I hate to see a fuy spend hard earned money and get ripped off. The cost of the cam is small compared to the cost of taking the engine apart and starting over . That's the only way to go now.

Hope everything works out. I will post more info once its in my hands.

Robin

you can email me.

 

[WFO]

Originally posted by RobinLBuddi
Radius Kid - Right on, bro!!! Yes, I have heard all good things about Schubeck. He's right up the with ol' Eddie Isky, and I've heard lots of good things about Iskys' cams too.

let me throw ultradyne into that mix as well.great cams and great people to work with.they have some pretty serious solid rollers for bb olds too,and harold will take the time to talk with you and help figure out what you need.

www.ultradyne.com

later,sean