Hydrid converter for the 2004R?

[newschool72]

Guys and gals, Im new to the board and although I don't have a GN, Ive always been a fan.
To the question. I have a 72 Camaro with an LS3, 2004R, big brakes, etc ,etc......and am in the market for a good converter. My build is a mild one, but makes respectable power and went 12.15 at 112 on a resent trip to the track to tune my timing curve. It pulls 1.7 60 fts with a plane jane 2100 rpm stall. My trans started to let go after my second pass and is out now and my local trans guru is going to go through it for me. My question is, has any of you tried one of the hybrid stalls in your 2004rs ? For those that don't know what that is, its a converter that has a 12" lockup clutch with a 10" converter attached to it. One of the companies claim a lockup that will hold 700 hp. Kinda like a poor mans 10" triple disc converter. I am going to get a converter more suited to my power band (3000 stall) and would like to have WOT lock up, but I cant justify an 1100 dollar triple disc circle D in a car that will seldom see track duty. I want a 11 sec time slip to throw in the glove box before I start playing mild autocross with my toy. Any advise on this style converter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Dusty Bradford]

It' called a 9x11 in most cases. I have never saw one that stalled any where near it's rating. A 3000 pm rating behind a V6 was closer to 2400. The LS3 will make more torque so it should get closer to 3000 rpm.

Honestly though you should not need to lock the converter car WOT. An LS3 capable of 6500 rpm should have no issues getting a converter to couple. WOT lock-up is commonly used in the Buick world because the cars are running low 11's or high 10's and shifting at 5200 rpm. An LS motor turns alot more rpm and shouldn't have the slip issue that the V6 has. I do alot of 10" single disc lock ups for the LS engines.

The only time I recommend a triple disc is for a high hp car where even part throttle power can slip the clutch. A lot of turbo and supercharged V8's can kill the clutch even at 40% throttle. With those I feel the triple disc is necessary.

 

[newschool72]

It' called a 9x11 in most cases. I have never saw one that stalled any where near it's rating. A 3000 pm rating behind a V6 was closer to 2400. The LS3 will make more torque so it should get closer to 3000 rpm.

Honestly though you should not need to lock the converter car WOT. An LS3 capable of 6500 rpm should have no issues getting a converter to couple. WOT lock-up is commonly used in the Buick world because the cars are running low 11's or high 10's and shifting at 5200 rpm. An LS motor turns alot more rpm and shouldn't have the slip issue that the V6 has. I do alot of 10" single disc lock ups for the LS engines.

The only time I recommend a triple disc is for a high hp car where even part throttle power can slip the clutch. A lot of turbo and supercharged V8's can kill the clutch even at 40% throttle. With those I feel the triple disc is necessary.

Thanks for the response Dusty. Although I don't turn that many rpms in my LS3 ( shift at 6100) I researched more and now I know I don't need WOT lockup at my power level. I thought on an auto cross course being locked would give me more control, like a manual. My car is an 11 sec capable , but with trans issues at my track trip, 12.15 at 112 was all it had in the Ga heat. Can I tell you my specs and get a recommendation for my setup?

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Yes. You can post or pm me your details and I can make a recommendation. Did you want something that can maintain lock up at WOT? Locking at WOT would be ok but keeping it locked on decel would not be advised. I'm not sure how you would manage lock up on accel and unlocked on decel. I'd do some more research before I planned to lock at WOT. I don't think most of the newer cars lock at wot for auto cross events.


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[newschool72]

Yes. You can post or pm me your details and I can make a recommendation. Did you want something that can maintain lock up at WOT? Locking at WOT would be ok but keeping it locked on decel would not be advised. I'm not sure how you would manage lock up on accel and unlocked on decel. I'd do some more research before I planned to lock at WOT. I don't think most of the newer cars lock at wot for auto cross events.


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I built the car from the start to be a good all around performer. It was put together to hang with the modern muscle the big 3 are putting out. Minimum ET isn't a concern, but a solid 11sec time slip would fit nice in the glovebox. The car is 90% street cruiser, so a tight converter is a must. That is why I went with a 2100 rpm 12" converter in the first place. I made the wrong assumption that a factory style 12" converter would hold the engine. That being said, I would like a converter that will flash to 3000-3200, so I get in the meat of the torque curve, but feel near stock cruising. Ive been told with the newer tech in converters, that's not too much to ask.
Now for specs.....3475 lbs w driver and a half tank of gas ( 72 Camaro) , LS3 GM crate engine..10.7 comp all stock but the cam ( Bullet racing 220-230 at .050 , 271-281 at .006 on a 108+4 LSA , 629 lift on both sides), 1 7/8th long tube headers, 2 1/2" Pypes x -pipe full exhaust, GMPP LS3 dual plane intake and Fast EZ efi. Motor is starting to nose over a 6200 rpms ,but has a great power band up to that point. I haven't dynoed the engine, but the torque comes in quick ( 1.7 60 ft w 2100rpm stall ). The rest of the drive train is the 2004R trans, 3.42 geared 8.5 10 bolt and 25.7" tires.
Im not going to worry about WOT lockup, just cruise lockup will be fine. So ,what do you think? Money is a concern, but you get what you pay for, so I don't want to pay more than 500-700 bucks. Thanks in advance!

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I made the wrong assumption that a factory style 12" converter would hold the engine.

What do you mean by this?? A 12" converter is much tighter than any 10" converter. When you say it can't hold the engine I assume it's way too loose and the engine is running through it which shouldn't be the case unless something is wrong with it.

I can cut it open and see if anything is wrong with it before you make a decision on what you want to try next.

A 12" converter will be super tight as in a stall speed of 2000-2400 rpm. Then a 10" can be from 2400-3600 if needed. If you prefer a really tight converter with a large lock-up clutch the 12" is the best option. The 10" would only be if you want something looser to help the car launch at the dragstrip.

 

[newschool72]

What do you mean by this?? A 12" converter is much tighter than any 10" converter. When you say it can't hold the engine I assume it's way too loose and the engine is running through it which shouldn't be the case unless something is wrong with it.

I can cut it open and see if anything is wrong with it before you make a decision on what you want to try next.

A 12" converter will be super tight as in a stall speed of 2000-2400 rpm. Then a 10" can be from 2400-3600 if needed. If you prefer a really tight converter with a large lock-up clutch the 12" is the best option. The 10" would only be if you want something looser to help the car launch at the dragstrip.

The car was going through the traps at 112 mph and the tach was at 5400 rpms in third gear. I assume the converter was ballooning an not coupling fully. If a converter is rated at ,say 350 ft lbs and the engine is applying 100+ more than that, what would happen? Lonnie at EA has been emailing back and forth with me and thinks the converter was failing ,based on what the car was doing. I am looking for a converter that will resist flashing at a low power output, but flash to 3000-3200 at WOT.
I already cut the converter myself and , sorry I don't know the terms,where the center turbo looking (lol) wheel (stator?) lays , there are several grooves cut into the flat mating surface. A few fins were also loose . On one side the fins were only brazed in 5 locations total and the other side just had the fin ends stuck in the slots on the inner casing and just bent over with no welds at all. I and Lonnie assume the small quantity of metal I found when I separated the filter came from the converter.
I want a smaller diameter converter because , from what Ive been told by converter companies, a 10" 3000 rpm converter will usually be more efficient that a 12" 2600 rpm converter, because to get the higher stall from the 12", the fins have to be bent back to cause the higher stall speed. The 10" 3000 would have an aggressive fin angle and be more efficient. Is that true as you have seen working with converters?
I am no longer worried about the large lockup clutch because from what everyone is telling me, I don't make enough power to take advantage of WOT lockup.
Thanks for talking this through with me. I am always willing to learn something .

 

[Dusty Bradford]

To get a 12" to stall near 3000 you have to use a very negative fin angle which doesn't couple well in high gear. A 10" 3000 stall will couple better than a 3000 stall 12". If your converter is a 2100 stall 12" it should couple better than a 3000 stall 10" but it sounds like you may have some fins laid over which would cause it to be much looser and slip in high gear.

I do not use a negative fin angle in the 12" converters for anything because of what you described. For that reason my 12's will only stall about 2200 behind a V6 and 2400-2600 behind a stout small block. I do feel the 10" is the best choice for your needs.


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[newschool72]

So, based on our conversation, what kind of money would we be talking and do you feel like you could set me up with a unit that would FEEL pretty tight at light throttle, but flash in the low 3000s behind my LS3? The engine makes good torque low and probably peaks at 4000 or less.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Flash stall is what the converter falls back to on the gear change. This is usually around 800 rpm shy of your shift rpm. Stall speed would be around 3000 rpm when foot braking. At your shift point a tight 10" like this will couple well at WOT. They are $500 and build time is 10-12 business days.


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[newschool72]

Thanks Dusty, I will let you know what I decide to do. By the way "Happy 4th !" Thanks to all that have served and those that still do.