low 10 second 109 build up??

dantheman

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
just want opinions on wich route to go with on bottom end should i use steel center caps or a girdle and is it worth going with a steel crank vs a rolled filletand steel con rods .what will lets go first srock block,stock crank or stock rods thanks
 
Check the various "recipes" for performance. Tom Cramer (RJC Racing) got into the 10s with stock heads, intake, main caps, and rods. He did have TRW pistons. He was only using 50# injectors, too. He was using the RJC girdle, and a stock location intercooler. I would think that a front mount IC and bigger injectors would have gotten the low 10s for that car, and there are others out there you can check out, too.
 
dantheman said:
just want opinions on wich route to go with on bottom end should i use steel center caps or a girdle and is it worth going with a steel crank vs a rolled filletand steel con rods .what will lets go first srock block,stock crank or stock rods thanks

Caps or girdle seems to be a preference thing.

The cost of the steel cranks and rods these days, it is really worth it to go with an Eagle crank/K1 rod and a good piston.

with stock block/crank/rod combo, I think most people break the crank first. Get a steel crank and stock rods, then the rods will probably go first.
 
Before girdles and forged cranks/rods were around.... there were hundreds of buildups with 109 blocks, billet 2/3 main caps, stock crank, polished stock rods with ARP bolts, and forged pistons (JE, Wiseco, Diamond, TRW with lightweight pins), ported stock 8445 casting heads with larger valves, ported stock intake running mid/low 10's for hundreds of passes in this form successfully.

What eventually happens when running high boost is that the stock crank flexes in the middle and eventually wears out #2/#3 main bearings. Simply turn the crank and plop in some new bearings. The key is to not detonate and run the best fuel you can. ie 116 octane

The girdle is a great way to thwart the crank flex which is trying to push the center caps out of the block and Racin Jason in UT has been in the 9's plenty of times with one and stock crank/rods and upgraded pistons. He runs GN1 alum heads...

The cost of forged cranks/rods that are on the market now makes for a nice setup at an affordable price... but they may be overkill.

Get the weight of the car down as low as possible and you won't need to push it as hard to accomplish your goals.
 
My uncle, Chris werner, who had the record setting N/A V6 regal...(Kenny Duttweilers old red regal..Chris ended up selling it to that cop...Billy Chaffin?), ran 9600rpm through the traps with 600hp on a CAST crank. He kept breaking forged nascar cranks and ended up going with an intelligently prepped cast crank. That crank never broke. If you know what you're doing, the cast crank is fine. I would drill out the oil galleys and do all the other possible oiling mods, (open up all the return holes and polish all the casting flash out of the block. This not only helps the oil get back to the pan faster, but it also greatly reduces the number of stress concentration points in the block where cracks start. Have a crank ground by someone who knows how to make a serious crankshaft (i'd recommend Howard Allen at JMS racing engines in monrovia, Ca.), and run an RJC main girdle and Eagle rods.....full floating setup on the wrist pins and some CP or JE pistons. Dont go too big on the piston to wall clearance if you plan on running the engine cool (160 thermostat) .003" absolute max. I would shoot for closer to .002". I honestly dont think steel caps are necessary if you run a kickass girdle like RJC's. Problem with the steel caps is that the metal is so much harder than the cast iron, that when you do the line hone, the honing bar resists removing material from the caps, and wants to drift into the block. You can end up with the crank and cam being too close together, and this will drastically reduce the number of line hones the block will take...plus another downside to that is that it moves the pistons further up the hole. I HATED doing steel cap conversions. Theres a boring jig that has to be bolted to the block, and the caps come undersize so they have to be bored out ALOT before they can be honed. Then the material is so hard that it makes doing a proper line hone a PITA. Find a shop that has a square decking jig. Go with a zero deck..a true SQUARE deck (great for quench which is real important on a force fed motor), and line hone with the heads torqued down on the block. Also use a torque plate to hone the cylinders (after the line hone) and run total seal rings if possible...you want that quench. If you want a truly blueprinted motor, you have to do it all in the right sequence. Do all the oiling mods first. Then line hone with heads torqued on the block. This gives a true position for the deck squaring jig to locate on. Then do the squaring and zeroing of the deck. Then Bore and hone with torque plates. Ive seen alot of old school block decks, crooked about .020-.030" Really terrible. If the head bolts arent perpendicular to the deck (which is the case with a crooked deck), then the head can creep after the bolts get torqued. Then you lose the seal. Of course you also end up with inconsistent preload on the lifters and varying quench from cylinder to cylinder among other things. A quality blueprinting job on a block is far more important than people think on any motor. You can free up ALOT of power doing a proper blueprinting job cause you're reducing all the parasitic frictional losses between the proper honing jobs and getting the exact same dynamic compression in every cylinder. Most of these old blocks are screwed up from being machined at the factory with worn out old gang tooling machines. Its not uncommon to gain 40-50hp and gain alot of mileage just from doing the block right. Also, next to detonation, nothing will break a main cap like poor alignment. Dont skimp on the line hone and make sure the line hone is done with the girdle in place and torqued.
 
thanks for the quality info guys ,now i just have to find a good machine shop up here in canada as many of my friends have had motors built by guy who build ford and chev motors and how build em vary well however i think they are a different beast altogether and if your not well versed in the building of the lc2 the motors dont usally last long.
 
dantheman said:
thanks for the quality info guys ,now i just have to find a good machine shop up here in canada as many of my friends have had motors built by guy who build ford and chev motors and how build em vary well however i think they are a different beast altogether and if your not well versed in the building of the lc2 the motors dont usally last long.
As long as you use a machinist who actually refers to the book when getting proper clearances, you should be fine. There are some old school SBC guys who pull numbers out of their asses based on the God awesome small block chevy (usually people afraid of change or any engine design that forces them to think..like how most SBC nuts bash fords cause they just dont understand them...come on people...they ALL suck) and machine every engine they see with those clearances. The SBC needs alot of oil pressure at high rpm. The turbo buick needs alot of oil pressure at low rpm because of the insane cylinder pressures and tremendous loads on the rods and mains when under boost. Make sure the tolerances get machined with that in mind. The big clearances will provide sufficient oil flow at high rpm, but in the turbo buick, the oil pressure going to the main and rod bearings would be way too low in the rpm range where it needs the most oil pressure. It blows my mind that there are engine "machinists" who dont refer to the machining manual when building any engine.
 
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