Lubricant in Meth

[Hognose]

Just curious if anyone has had any issues with this. The Alky I get from the track and from a local guy here who has meth for his Alky powered car has a lubrican added to it already. So it actually has a light blue tint. I figure it shouldn't hurt. Looks like Windshield washer fluid!

This weekend I went to a different track and the Meth was a lot darker blue, maybe for some reason more lubricant in it. I am not sure but it made me question, Would this be ok to run as well?

Thanks

Matthew

 

[Alky V6]

Was it Sunoco?

 

[Bob Avellar]

I buy mine at a gokart track (they run on methanol). I think it is by VP. It has a small amount of lube in it but it is still clear. No issues using it for years and it sits in an all aluminum tank . No corrosion whatsoever.

 

[Hognose]

I am not sure what brand it was at the track, but it was a much darker blue than the usual Meth I buy.

 

[Razor]

My experience is as follows.

See the pumps internals, like on my pump.. is designed with methanol in mind. Meaning seals, gaskets, valves, etc. are designed around methanol.

Now you have different types of rubbers with different chemical resilience to them. Example if you go to any nitrous vendor and look at solenoids for instance, you'll see they have ones for gasoline, and ones for alcohol(methanol). The seals inside the solenoids are different. Meaning the gasoline solenoid will fail with alcohol and vice versa.

Here's where it gets tricky.. meaning rubbers are typically treated to handle one or the other. IE Buna and Viton for example. Now by adding a lubricant to the alcohol.. your playing cocktails with rubber, seals,etc within your system and seeing if they are truly compatible.. as the petroleum content is now added to the methyl content. I would not suggest adding any lubricant to methanol. The pump does not need it, the system doesnt need it, then engine has plenty of oil present in gasoline.. and if anything, you'll mess your pump up in short order playing chemist.

The few pump failures I saw last year have come from methanol tainted with fuel/lubes. The guys running straight methanol that is clear.. those never have issues. Buy it in 5 gallon pails from VP, Sunoco, Torco, etc.. I can say this has been the recipe for trouble free performance. Start experimenting with lubes, additives, gasoline, tolulene, Xylene, etc... you'll be buying a new pump sooner than latter.

Hope this helps.. run it straight or mixed with water if you so wish to experiment. Add oil into the mixture.. bets off how long the pump will last. What oils, who's oil, etc.. dont know.. dont want to know.

HTH

Julio

 

[Hognose]

Julio,
Thanks, for the info. It is not me who has added the oil, when I purchsed Meth at the track it is already added. I have not been able to find a source for clear Meth around here so far. I am going to check a couple other places and maybe have to buy a 55 gal drum, which would be fine with me.

Next question then, how does the pump fail? Will it just not work? Will it leak? Will it work occasionally?
Also what is the cost for a replacement pump. I have had my kit from you for about a year and a half and have run maybe 7-10 gallons of meth through my car. All of it blue! So I guess I should be prepared to order a new pump when I can find some clear meth.
Thanks for your help.

Matthew

 

[Cme2fly]

I buy mine at a gokart track (they run on methanol). I think it is by VP. It has a small amount of lube in it but it is still clear. No issues using it for years and it sits in an all aluminum tank . No corrosion whatsoever.

+1 on the go cart shops..Ive run VP meth purchase through a local go cart performance shop at 4.00 a gallon.

 

[Razor]

Julio,
Thanks, for the info. It is not me who has added the oil, when I purchsed Meth at the track it is already added. I have not been able to find a source for clear Meth around here so far. I am going to check a couple other places and maybe have to buy a 55 gal drum, which would be fine with me.

Next question then, how does the pump fail? Will it just not work? Will it leak? Will it work occasionally?
Also what is the cost for a replacement pump. I have had my kit from you for about a year and a half and have run maybe 7-10 gallons of meth through my car. All of it blue! So I guess I should be prepared to order a new pump when I can find some clear meth.
Thanks for your help.

Matthew

If the pump fails due to a chemical issue, what will happen is the santoprene seal inside will shrink. Once that happens it will leak between the seam of the upper housing and head. There are other seals like the valve, check valve, etc that can fail on other models. This is why pumps cannot be mounted inside of vehicles or inside trunks.. duhh.. I let a cat out.

Santoprene is a very chemical resistant material. But it was never designed with petroleum products in mind. The lube you have been using may not be an issue. But lubricants rarely tell you exactly what they have. If you have been using this same methanol now for some time and your system is working.. keep the same stuff. Your in so far.. stay the course.

Use your test button, it will let ya know if there is a problem. And if you havent done so, upgrade to the newer pressure sensing whereby the turnon LED turns from Red to Green when it makes pressure. Contact me off list for info and pricing.

I cannot guess what oils may or maynot be used. Only way is to use an oil and then test it for a year straight. This kind of data is very hard to obtain. Most companies as stated above will not list what formulation they use. Perfect example, buy a pint of Lucas oil treatment.. whats inside it??? Who knows. This is why I will never ever ever recommend anyone use windshield washer fluid. As you do not know all the chemicals that are involved. Shoot enough amonia into your motor.. you'll wish you never cheaped out.

Lets keep the Chemistry in the schools where it belongs. Its hard enough to keep a car running

This also applies to different methanols from different suppliers. Some are more aggressive than others in the way they attack parts. The Phillips 66 stuff is way more aggressive than the Sunoco. My pump wont have an issue.. but some Shurflo's will swell up with the Phillips 66. I'm leaving this subject alone, you need more specific on my system.. call me. I'll let the other injection kit MFG's solve their own issues. There are lots of readers, and information of this type comes hard.. real hard

Mumms the word.. hope the above helped.

Julio

 

[Bob Avellar]

+1 on the go cart shops..Ive run VP meth purchase through a local go cart performance shop at 4.00 a gallon.

Yup, The guy I buy it from supplies most of the racers at the track-he also runs two carts himself. Some of the guys also run prostocks at the roundy round tracks and they run the carts more as a hobby. The amount of lube is minimal but enough to separate if mixed with water.(Can't use it as a dry gas in your fuel). He usually charges about $3.50 /gal.

 

[Alky V6]

If there's ever a choice of rubber, go with viton. Good stuff.

 

[Razor]

If there's ever a choice of rubber, go with viton. Good stuff.

Not for methanol it isnt. There are different grades of Viton, as there are different methanols. I'll show you some swollen viton parts whenever ya want.. not pretty.

The Shurflo pumps came with Viton valves... they will have issues. Bob A has seen this.

 

[Bob Avellar]

Not for methanol it isnt. There are different grades of Viton, as there are different methanols. I'll show you some swollen viton parts whenever ya want.. not pretty.

The Shurflo pumps came with Viton valves... they will have issues. Bob A has seen this.

Yup, Had the viton seals swell one time. I replaced the seals back in 2001 as best that I can recall. Also had the oring swell on the internal check valve. I did not specify a new material so I assume the seals I have been using for the past 5 or 6 yrs. are also viton. I might be able to find the paperwork on that. The oring I got at my local parts place-don't even remember what material it was. I opened up the pump last summer for inspection and everything looked fine. I also soaked the deformed original seals in plain H20 for about 24 hrs. and they reverted back to their original shape. Don't know how they would stand up but they look normal. Back then I was experimenting with different alcohols and mixtures. I used alot of denatured and I was using a solvent alcohol marketed by Sterling Chemicals. Methanol was the only ingredient listed on the 1 gallon cans which I think I used to buy for about $5.00/gal at Benny's. It must have been more destructive to the seals than the methanol I get now since I haven't had the problem again. Either the grade of methanol and/or the small lube added to it has allowed me to use an alcohol tank witout any corrosion and no seal swelling so there might be some significant differences in the properties of various methanols.Hey, maybe the guy has been selling me plain water for all these years.

 

[Alky V6]

Interesting. Some seals in transmissions are made of viton. It is an expensive rubber so their use is restricted to high heat areas where they don't want premature hardening or shrinkage. Very identifiable by their color. A very dark grey. Not pitch black like other everyday rubbers. I'll grab some of those orings and soak them in some methanol today and report back. I'll soak some others in mineral spirits and water also.

I think the pump shaft oring in my weldon pump is viton. I switch back and forth from alky to gas and sometimes with top lubes in the alky. No problem for a few years now. Knock on wood.

 

[Razor]

You know those brown o-rings on the end of fuel lines like on the Buick.. those are Viton.

They'll swell up with Methanol

Thing is.. some methanol may swell it.. some wont. Like the Phillips66 stuff will Sunoco wont.

Gray colored viton... never seen that. I have seen Viton in black and brown. Goes to show

 

[Alky V6]

Actually, they're black with a touch of greyish look to them. When you have one next to the normal rubber used, it becomes pretty easy to pick them out.

 

[Hognose]

Getting back on track. I spoke with Julio about ordering a new pump, to be on the safe side. (Wich I still haven't done but will this week for sure!)

I was swapping bumpers on my car this morning. I was under the passenger side and I felt a drip on my head. I look up and I find my Alky pump is leaking! So proof positive that running Meth from a track that puts "Top Lube" in their meth will ruin the seals in the pump.

Here is a pick of the pump. You can see the blue lube running down the side of it!

Julio, you always seem to amaze me with the knolegde of your project! At least we know for sure now that it is defiantely a no -no!

I will definately get my order in this week! Thanks for your help.

Matthew Smith

 

[Bob Avellar]

Hmm, Where exactly are these pumps developing leaks so that it comes out of the housing? Evidently the stock pumps with buna rubber (i think) are not adversely affected by oils or "top lube' as thay can be used for transmission fluid and oil transfer. I never had a leak and I have oil in the meth all the time.I know the maintainance dpt where I work has used them for many years to pump oils with zero failures. They also use them for spraying insecticides and other wonderful chemicals. I don't know- maybe the higher pressures are doing it? Hey, I guess its kinda like blowing a head gasket - but waay cheaper. I've just never seen any leak unless they were pumping water (in a motor home) and were allowed to freeze. Interesting. What exactly is the oil doing to the internals-eating them away, swelling them? Just curious.
Never mind- I just re read one of Julio's earlier posts above.