Major transitional knock with Alkycontrol

[BuickMike]

I finally got the GN back together enough to drive it and went to go do some tuning on it. My setup is in the sig below. I have a TT Extreme G chip with a Translator Gen 2. So before I was using Julio's kit, but with a Snow Performance controller. I had no issues with that setup until I went over 20psi. After that I was unable to spay enough alky. While my GN was apart I had Julio rebuild my pump and bought his controller. It is factory set. LED turns red at 6-7 psi and goes green at 11-12psi. If I ease into it I can go all the way to 25psi with no knock and I have fueling set so I am currently at 11.0:1 on the WB. I can actually hit 11.5 with no knock, but I'm being safe here.

So anyway, the new issue that I have is major transitional knock if I get into it harder. My boost comes on extremely fast BTW. Since this was not an issue with the other controller and AFR is not going lean when it knocks, the issue has to be with methanol tuning. So at this point my thought is that I need it to come on much quicker. Turning the knob all the way to 8 does not help.

So, should I try turning the initial knob up a bit for faster ramp up, settig turn on lower, like 5psi, upping the regulator on the pump, or a combination? Keep in mind that this issue is a lot of knock and for just a split second and I would rather over do it and get a bog condition from too much alky and back it off to find the sweet spot.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[we4Mateo]

I finally got the GN back together enough to drive it and went to go do some tuning on it. My setup is in the sig below. I have a TT Extreme G chip with a Translator Gen 2. So before I was using Julio's kit, but with a Snow Performance controller. I had no issues with that setup until I went over 20psi. After that I was unable to spay enough alky. While my GN was apart I had Julio rebuild my pump and bought his controller. It is factory set. LED turns red at 6-7 psi and goes green at 11-12psi. If I ease into it I can go all the way to 25psi with no knock and I have fueling set so I am currently at 11.0:1 on the WB. I can actually hit 11.5 with no knock, but I'm being safe here.

So anyway, the new issue that I have is major transitional knock if I get into it harder. My boost comes on extremely fast BTW. Since this was not an issue with the other controller and AFR is not going lean when it knocks, the issue has to be with methanol tuning. So at this point my thought is that I need it to come on much quicker. Turning the knob all the way to 8 does not help.

So, should I try turning the initial knob up a bit for faster ramp up, settig turn on lower, like 5psi, upping the regulator on the pump, or a combination? Keep in mind that this issue is a lot of knock and for just a split second and I would rather over do it and get a bog condition from too much alky and back it off to find the sweet spot.

Thanks,

Mike

I turn mine on at 5psi as well for the same problem you are having. I run initial at 11 o'clock, below recommended at noon, but that's what works for me. No transitional and it doesn't drown at 12psi like it would if I let the initial at noon. The new motor will most likely like something totally different but I've always set my cars up to turn on at 5psi with anyone's kit. My 44 spools WAY too fast to wait until 8 to get the pump going. I run my gain at 6 or 6.5.

 

[BuickMike]

Thanks! I had my Snow controller set to come on at 5psi and hit max at 17psi, so early turn on and somewhat fast ramp up. I will try 5psi and set nital at noon to get started. If it bogs I will pull initial back.

 

[we4Mateo]

Thanks! I had my Snow controller set to come on at 5psi and hit max at 17psi, so early turn on and somewhat fast ramp up. I will try 5psi and set nital at noon to get started. If it bogs I will pull initial back.

What does your Vig actually stall at 0-1psi? Mine's rated well over 3000stall and has been sent in three times for a higher restall and it stalls at 2750 on my car at 0-1psi. I got it from a guy who needed more but it's great on my combo. I'm hoping it stalls a little higher on the next combo though. 3000 would still be enough for what I want to do with it. Just curious. Thanks.

 

[BuickMike]

Mine's rated at 3200 and stalls right at 3000 and 0 psi. It is absolutely perfect for my combo. With the Precision housing the turbo spools instantly, and I mean instantly. My friend described it as feeling like I have a big shot of Nitrous.

 

[we4Mateo]

Mine's rated at 3200 and stalls right at 3000 and 0 psi. It is absolutely perfect for my combo. With the Precision housing the turbo spools instantly, and I mean instantly. My friend described it as feeling like I have a big shot of Nitrous.

Awesome! Thanks for the info. I hear you on the nitrous thing; I get that feeling when I lock the TC and it picks up another 3psi at the same time. All good fun.

 

[Razor]

I think that a problem may be trying to use the alcohol to correct an overlean condition on spoolup. See on carburators you have a cam that you can adjust called a pump shot. So when you floor the car it adjusts how much fuel is squirted down the throat. Not the same when you gradually floor it as the venturi is what then puts fuel into the motor. This is AE on your chip. So when the chip see's TPS vs MAP increase really fast its suppossed to dump extra fuel to keep it from going lean with the extra surge of air coming into the motor. In this case throttle opening quick, lots of air.. needs extra fuel. In the case above, whats happening is your trying to use the alcohol as the extra fuel.. and the time delay of getting the pump to spin, lines filled, out the nozzle, into the combustion chamber.. see its all about time.

The fix.. easy.. you simply need more fuel put into the motor. Whether its through curving of the MAF calibrations, or adding fuel pressure, or chip reprogramming. Adding fuel pressure is the easiest.. then all you need is to pull a little fuel at WOT to compensate for the additional fueling.

Understand that when a chip is made, the chip maker does his very best to get you as close as he can based on his experience making them. But its not an exact science as revisions are needed. I've probably had over 200+ chips go through my car.. for this reason. And this where having a power logger to record the events becomes invaluable.

So.. bottom line.. set the car to 15 psi boost, timing to 18 degree's.. it better not knock under any circumstance without alcohol. get it to the level.. then move on to tuning with the meth.

 

[BuickMike]

Thanks Julio. I do need to get something better than Turbolink to monitor this thing. I had a passenger watching my WB02 guage (AEM UEGO 30-4100) like a hawk and logged with the laptop the whole time. According to him, the AFR was at 11.0:1 even when we got the knock. The AFR never dipped like I would expect if fueling was an issue and the AEM responds fast. We spent time at 10psi just getting the mid and high load fueling adjusted on the car and slowly started working the boost up.

The only reason I am looking at the meth system first is because the controller is really the only thing that has changed since this issue started.

I'm in the process of swapping rear control arms right now, so it will be a few days before I update this thread.

I'll try upping the fuel psi on the regulator and see if that helps. If so, I'll pull it back and adjust the fueling on the translator.

I'll try WE4Mateo's suggestion of lowering the turn on too since I had ny snow controller turn on set to 5psi too.

I'll keep you all posted.

 

[Mr.Spool]

its also easier with a meth pressure gauge to get things timed correctly for your setup rather than trying to set curves off lights.i have found the gauge to be very valuable.

 

[Razor]

its also easier with a meth pressure gauge to get things timed correctly for your setup rather than trying to set curves off lights.i have found the gauge to be very valuable.

Yup.. the more data you have, the better decisions you can make.

 

[KEVINS]

...decisions...decisions...aarrrggggg...TOO MANY DECISSIONS TO MAKE!!!!

ks

 

[BuickMike]

Alright, so I'm not having any luck so far with this. I tried WE4Mateo's suggestion, but no dice. It appears to me that my car is not going into power enrichment mode fast enough. I had a good talk to Julio about this and got some more ideas of what to look for. I also checked with Eric and got the items that are triggers to go into PE mode. I really need to get Powerlogger for this. Since this issue didn't happen at all until now I'm trying to figure out what has caused it. Other than the alky controller the only other things I changed were:
Replaced the 2 bar with a 3 bar MAP - that shouldn't affect anything with the ECM.
Installed Casper's volt booster. Since that plugs into the TPS harness, I will double check my TPS volts at different throttle positions and see if it has somehow changed.
Rebuilt alky pump. Prior to having it rebuilt, I did have the regulator screw way down compared to what it is set at. My LED does not sense "pressure met" condition until 15 psi. I know that with the old pump I was getting into pressure alot earlier. I guess just for fun I can adjust the screw in a bit to get the LED to go green at 10psi and see if that makes a difference. Until I have a better logging tool I am just grasping at straws here.

 

[we4Mateo]

...Rebuilt alky pump. Prior to having it rebuilt, I did have the regulator screw way down compared to what it is set at. My LED does not sense "pressure met" condition until 15 psi. I know that with the old pump I was getting into pressure alot earlier. I guess just for fun I can adjust the screw in a bit to get the LED to go green at 10psi and see if that makes a difference. Until I have a better logging tool I am just grasping at straws here.

That screw only affects when the light turns on. It has nothing to do with pressure output.

 

[KEVINS]

So anyway, the new issue that I have is major transitional knock if I get into it harder. My boost comes on extremely fast BTW. Since this was not an issue with the other controller and AFR is not going lean when it knocks, the issue has to be with methanol tuning. So at this point my thought is that I need it to come on much quicker. Turning the knob all the way to 8 does not help.

Since the boost is coming on a lot faster than before are the tires spinning then getting KR?
If so then this could be wheelspin knock which there doesn't appear to be a cure for except to program knock ignore into the chip.. Many of us suffer from this issue. If I light the tires up too quickly my audible knock detector starts screaming at me..

ks

 

[BuickMike]

It's not wheel spin. This is real knock for sure. I'm gonna get approval from my accountant to order Powerlogger and figure this out the right way.

 

[haywire4130]

I think the volt booster could be the culprit. I dont have any experience with one myself but if it's sending higher voltage out of the tps at a lower throttle position it could be causing the timing to ramp up faster than your motor will tolerate without knock. Knock due to timing would fit since you said the afr on your wideband doesn't spike lean when it knocks. Sounds good on paper anyway- i'd unplug it and see

 

[BuickMike]

Well I got powerlogger and started logging this issue. What I ended up finding out that it appears that my issue is a physical problem and not a tuning issue. The knock is because the alky is not getting into the motor fast enough. What I mean is that the system is turning on, but the pump is losing its prime somehow. I realized that with all the red on my knock gauge that I wasn't noticing that the LED for my alky system stayed red. Today I had an issue where I was getting no alky at all and I held down the test button for a long time before alky finaly got into the motor. I got into it once I had it primed and no more transitional knock. I drove around a bit more and hammered it hard a few moments after priming with the test button and no issues every time. I guess I need to check for leaks and try to see if the check valve in the pump is bad.

 

[Razor]

Well I got powerlogger and started logging this issue. What I ended up finding out that it appears that my issue is a physical problem and not a tuning issue. The knock is because the alky is not getting into the motor fast enough. What I mean is that the system is turning on, but the pump is losing its prime somehow. I realized that with all the red on my knock gauge that I wasn't noticing that the LED for my alky system stayed red. Today I had an issue where I was getting no alky at all and I held down the test button for a long time before alky finaly got into the motor. I got into it once I had it primed and no more transitional knock. I drove around a bit more and hammered it hard a few moments after priming with the test button and no issues every time. I guess I need to check for leaks and try to see if the check valve in the pump is bad.

The LED is there for a reason. Your test button is there for a reason. Those have to work predictably or don't go into boost. If the system takes a long time to prime, then your Initial is probably low or check valve is not sealing on the pump. Example a piece of trash holding it open allowing liquid to back flow.

But i'd look into Initial settings first, I replied to your email.. with Gain on 8, look for 4.0 volts across red and black pump wires when you push TEST.

another thing is make sure your pressure hose isn't resting against something hot under the hood. Like a lower radiator hose.

 

[turbo nasty]

Check every thing real close... I had this happen years back.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/th...-problem-cracked-fitting.314240/#post-2455829

 

[BuickMike]

Check every thing real close... I had this happen years back.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/th...-problem-cracked-fitting.314240/#post-2455829

I spent some time yesterday going over the fittings and checked for leaks in the lines while my wife ran the test button. I didn't see any leaks. I took everything apart, checked the filter, pulled apart and cleaned the nozzle, and put it back together. I haven't had a chance to check it again though. I did connect a clear tube on the outlet of the filter and filled it with water. I marked the spot that I filled to and watched to see if it would drop. After about 20min it dropped about 4". Not sure if that indicates a problem with the check valve or not.

I try Julio's suggestion later today and check for leaks.