max boost on alky?

[bird]

anyone run the same boost on alky, as with race fuel(c-16)? i usually run my boost in the mid to upper 20's with c-16. trying to decide if i could run the same #'s with alky?

 

[V8killR4U]

I think the amount of timing is what you should be considering. You may be able to run 25lbs on 18-20 * but will probably get detonation at 26* timing.

 

[Russ Merritt]

Alky is no substitute for C-16. With C-16 I can run big timing and boost. With alky, 21 degrees timing and pump gas I am only able to run 23# boost before hurtful knock. This is on a bigger set up, 70 turbo, GN1 heads, roller motor, dual nozzles....

C-16 I can run 24+ degrees, 27+ boost without knock........ C-16 simply kicks ass......

Now, with the pump gas and alky it def makes power though, don't get me wrong. Down only 50hp from the race tune up is still pretty good. I'm going to be tryin a new ME-R chip for the alky when I get home from BPG that has 18 degrees timing. Steve Y says I should be able to make some big power, pretty close to the race tune up. I'll find out as I'm going to use the same dyno as I did before, just hopefully more boost. 26-27# would be nice....

This is what happened when I tried it........ Def not an alky expert, but def a junky now that I tried it......

 

[pacecarta]

i dont agree
without an intercooler upgrade c-16 is not a substitute for alky and will not out do the boost you can run on alky due to the cooling effect on the intake charge as well as the cylinder cooling the alky provides and still run an O2 sensor without fear of killing it

and as for timing , i run 27.6 /24 on alky at 28 psi with a stock duttneck i/c and on some of the hottest days of the year when its been 90+ degrees and over 100 track temp

but get a cool day and if you have a big frontmount intercooler the c16 will tolerate more timing and you should be ableto run boost near or over 30lbs

 

[WSLN 6]

Hey Russ, do you use an egt gauge at all? If you do let me know what kind of temps you are seeing after you put in the lower timing chip. I couldn't keep it under 1800 degrees, so I switched back to the high timing one, and all is normal again, 1670.

 

[Russ Merritt]

i dont agree
without an intercooler upgrade c-16 is not a substitute for alky and will not out do the boost you can run on alky due to the cooling effect on the intake charge as well as the cylinder cooling the alky provides and still run an O2 sensor without fear of killing it

and as for timing , i run 27.6 /24 on alky at 28 psi with a stock duttneck i/c and on some of the hottest days of the year when its been 90+ degrees and over 100 track temp

but get a cool day and if you have a big frontmount intercooler the c16 will tolerate more timing and you should be ableto run boost near or over 30lbs

Yea, I've talked to a bunch of people that run alky and some say the same thing. They've run lots of timing and boost. That's why I'm kinda shocked my car won't have any of it....... I have an M15 and an M10 both sprayin full time, leaned the R out with a wide band 02 to 11.5-12 to 1 and she runs well but nothin more than 23#.......... Anymore than that and she's not happy with me..... Like I said, I'm not an alky pro. I do know how to tune one of these rather well as I've been playin with em for 15yrs. If this were Razors car I'd love to see what he would do to get the big timing and boost. Be a fly on the wall so to speak.......

Anyway, I'm gonna keep playin around after I get back from BPG. I can't sleep right now as I let my Huskies out at 4am and there was a skunk on the porch...........You can guess the rest.. Gonna be a long day. Why me? I musta pissed someone off.......

 

[marleyskater420]

I've hit upwards of 27psi w/ 91 gas and a 23/21 degree chip.

Not bad, I'd say.

I even turned a local guy onto alky, and am helping him install it this friday.

 

[Russ Merritt]

Dude, your car's all F***** up.......


Mine isn't......... I'll leave it at that.

 

[87grandnat]

Dude, i would listen to Russ, he is a freaking car genius! and he most definitly know what he is talking about

but that is just my opinion,

Joshua

 

[Mark]

There are a lot of variables. I'm running about 32 psi now (guessing because my gauge is pegged) on 25/23 degrees and 93 octane. Certainly wouldn't be able to do that with ported heads though...

 

[Razor]

bird, tuning it in is the big question. Especially on a modded car. and there is no plug-n-play chip when the real squeeze gets put on the car. HP wise.. man I know of more than a handful of 4 cyl motor hitting 700 to the wheels.. if a 4 cyl can do it.. a 6 is a piece of cake.. but engine management is key.

Times in sig were done at BG 3 months ago. No majic. But you start at a lower boost setting and work your way up.. My boost at BG was at 25 PSI through the traps on the 126 run, 23-24 on the 122 through the traps. I have run the car on spirts to 28-29 PSI and datalogged no KR.

My buddie Richie, GN1's, 70 turbo, 212/212 cam, ME-r 24 degree's.. has been 32 PSI on the highway on his Buick.. no KR. At 34 PSI it pushed out the gasket.

Russ.. its a chip tuning issue your having. Your a smart guy.. but trying to run on just a scanmaster is tough.. told ya to hook up the DS and let me look at it.. but thats on your race car.. somethings up.. but for a plug-n-play deal you got off to a good start. Let me know what injectors your running and i'll get Steve to get you another image. We'll be playing on Richie's car this/next week.. hopefully getting him re-dialed in on the new ME-r chip.

 

[Russ Merritt]

That is true, doing it with a scanmaster is tough. Doing it with anything, even directscan with the narrow band 02 sensor will never be that accurate on air/fuel ratio. That is why I went to the dyno and used a wideband.

Directscan is a great tool and I love it. Knock counts/retard, timing, MAT temps, coolant temp, Load value, rpm, and being able to record it all is awesome BUT, I refuse to believe one cannot tune an alky/pump gas vehicle with a scanmaster/dyno/wideband. I know it can be done......

Like I said too, people run high timing/boost with alky, I've talked to plenty of them. I thought with only 21 degrees, I'm def safe here. I should be able to atleast run 25# boost. No way jose. I had a peak of 539hp on pump gas and alky with an air/fuel of 11.5 - 12 to 1. The more fuel I took out of the chip, the more power I made BUT, boost was limited to no more than 23#. Believe me when I say, I TORTURED THIS MOTOR TRYIN TO GO HIGHER!!! Hyper pistons and all. Still runnin strong thanks to Cometic HGs. I have a really nice engine sittin on the floor in the kitchen when it does finally go......YEAH DUUDE!!!

I'll let you know how I make out with the other chip with less timing. I'll tune it on the same dyno I used before. Like you say Razor, you like lower timing, higher boost. That's the direction my car is saying to go in also.......I'm listenin to her. Maybe the interruptor ring is off on the balancer and throwing the timing off and it's more than I think it is...But I don't think so.

Please don't think I'm bashin alky!! You guys have done a GREAT job designing/playin with this stuff. It is addicting and I love it! I could drive my car as it is, it's fast enough for the street any day but once you catch the bug........Gotta get every last little bit.......I'll keep you posted. Chip will be here soon.....

 

[2QUIK6]

As mentioned tune is very important. But also, what mods have been done may determine which works best or how far you can go with either.
On my car, I've ran C116 up to 27# boost and 26 degrees of timing, but it ran no faster than it did with C116 and 24# of boost and 24 degrees of timing.....stock unported heads I suspect are why.
Now I'm on alky I've been slowly working my way up on boost and timing, and tuning..up to 24# boost and 22 degrees no knock. I just got alky in the spring..all my turbo tests last winter were in the cold, so my track times so far with alky have been with outside temps much higher than when I was using C116 thru the winter...so we'll see when the temps come down if I can muster similar ETs/mph although I'm only 4 mph off in the 1/8 right now.

 

[don86T]

I have run same the boost and timing on alcohol as I have on 110 race fuel. 25psi and 24* in all gears. The best et (by a tenth) was on alcohol and 93. The EGTs were lower too.

Don

 

[Razor]

That is true, doing it with a scanmaster is tough. Doing it with anything, even directscan with the narrow band 02 sensor will never be that accurate on air/fuel ratio. That is why I went to the dyno and used a wideband.

Directscan is a great tool and I love it. Knock counts/retard, timing, MAT temps, coolant temp, Load value, rpm, and being able to record it all is awesome BUT, I refuse to believe one cannot tune an alky/pump gas vehicle with a scanmaster/dyno/wideband. I know it can be done......

...

Russ.. you and me are on the same playing field. Point is when you were on the dyno with the wideband.. and started having issues.. you were stuck with what was allowed on the chip for changes. The Direct Scan lets guys like me and Steve see whats going on and play back runs to see if something sticks out.

Hence why I said engine management. The ability to make changes on the fly. Hell I would tell you to play with a spark translator and a lower timing ME-r. That way you start low and work your way up on timing via the spark translator. At WOT you have spark and fuel. And I've tuned plenty of these cars with the junk single wire O2's with great success

Tell Steve to make you a dual timing chip. Pos 1-8 like 18 degree's, pos 9-F like 22 degree's. And set the fueling center like pos 6 you were running. Target 760-770 at WOT 100-110 MPH with the twins.. see where that takes you.

 

[marleyskater420]

Dude, your car's all F***** up.......


Mine isn't......... I'll leave it at that.

Are you reffering to me?

 

[Russ Merritt]

Russ.. you and me are on the same playing field. Point is when you were on the dyno with the wideband.. and started having issues.. you were stuck with what was allowed on the chip for changes. The Direct Scan lets guys like me and Steve see whats going on and play back runs to see if something sticks out.

Hence why I said engine management. The ability to make changes on the fly. Hell I would tell you to play with a spark translator and a lower timing ME-r. That way you start low and work your way up on timing via the spark translator. At WOT you have spark and fuel. And I've tuned plenty of these cars with the junk single wire O2's with great success

Tell Steve to make you a dual timing chip. Pos 1-8 like 18 degree's, pos 9-F like 22 degree's. And set the fueling center like pos 6 you were running. Target 760-770 at WOT 100-110 MPH with the twins.. see where that takes you.

I was having issues, THEN went to the dyno to see where I stood. From what I had heard (numerous sources) on alky, big boost AND timing was to be had for all spraying meth. You and I both agree, 21 degrees 23# boost is a chicken **** tune up on alky. We thought maybe a second nozzle will help.....It didn't help at all. I could run that before on the 1 nozzle. So then I thought, since this is such a lame tune up, it was me that was doing something wrong, that's when I went to the dyno. The dyno/wide band taught me with accuracy when I was actually makin more/less power, without questions. I understand the butt dyno works and have done plenty of that tuning myself with the stock 02. The R does not come with the dual timing anymore. I know Steve could make one but we already know the car needs less timing to increase boost. I knew that pretty much the day I started playin, but from what I had heard, denied believing it. He is sending the new "alky" chip, with low timing to run more boost. No translator +s needed, we know where we need to go. We believe it should make race tune up power on pump gas and I will verify that with the dyno. That's where the question of this post comes in, "how much boost can we run on alky?" Well, if my timing is low, I can run,.....more with MY car. (goes to show GN1 heads are much more efficent than stock heads. That is where people are running the big timing #s. Stock heads take forever to get the flame front traveling, hence they need/use more timing). My street car on lots of alky, will tollerate low timing and high boost, or moderate timing and moderate boost. There is no magic tune up that will permit high timing 22+ degrees and high boost 25+ pounds on MY car.......I don't care WHO is trying...... I tried, it will not happen......

That is the story from here, that's all I'm sayin. I thought I had a moderate/usable chip only having 21 degrees but that turned out to be pretty aggresive with a bigger set up. (GN1s, roller cam, 70Q) Your right Julio, we need less fuel and timing, something we both know...... No need for Translator +s, we'll set the timing in the chip at 18 degrees WOT, lower the fueling a bit and I'll turn the boost up till she tells me "that's enough dad". I will make big power on pump gas it will just have to be with a "street/alky" chip..... No big deal and I didn't even blow a headgasket...........Steve told me to say that..

I also know you have put kits on cars with a much bigger set up than mine. Stage engine, big turbos, GN1 heads, ect.... What did they run for timing/boost on pump gas and alky?

The answer to the original question, comes in the form of a question. How much boost on alky? Like with everything else on these cars..... What is your set up? Cause it will determine just how much boost you can run......

 

[Razor]

Well the translator I mentioned allows you to adjust timing. Ie.. Spark Translator. Not MAF translator.

Hey tell Steve... hehehe.. I've never had a HG let go on a dyno "yet". I'll leave that for when I get really greedy.

Anytime you can drive to the dyno.. and drive home.. your doing great..

Man you ask what timing.. as you said.. whatever the combo will tolerate. How bout running the car a little fatter like 11.0 for AFR.. and seeing how it responds? Maybe 11.5 is way too lean on Methanol+pump on your particular motor.

Richie has a similar setup. He's going to the track Saturday.. street wise.. he's already blown past that 25 PSI with 24 degree's timing.

Maybe your getting too much alky cuasing it to lay down? Somethen's up.. just will take a little figuring.. like all high end engine mods on these motors

 

[rpk250]

not quite. Can go about 24-25# with alky and 93. I have been 26-27# with c16. pretty close though.

 

[Russ Merritt]

I tried wicked fat, I tried less alky, I tried everything except less timing which is next...... No matter what, it's still pretty fun stuff to mess with and I have nothing bad to say about alcohol injection. Anyway, that car will have to wait. Headed to Ohio with the car I haven't raced in 2 yrs..... I hope this one takes a beating like the other...... See ya.