More Boost Or More Timing

[87T]

I WAS WONDERING HOW TO MAKE MORE POWER,,,RUN MORE BOOST OR RUN MORE TIMING,,,I CAN RUN ABOUT 21-22 LBS WITH 1-2DEG RETARD WITH A CHIP THAT READS ABOUT 21 DEG AT WOT ON THE DIRECT SCAN. IF I REDUCE TIMING AND INCREASE BOOST OR INCREASE TIMING AND REDUCE BOOST WHICH GETS THE BEST RESULTS ?????????????

 

[JayC]

The answer here is "It all depends."

If you have a close(r) to stock setup, more timing will probably go the fastest. That's why my stock injector chips have the most timing, blue tops the next highest timing, etc. Usually by the time you make the switch to 40# or larger injectors, you have some of the goods you need to go faster with more boost such as a better turbo and intercooler. Some people make the switch to bigger injectors early before they have the goods needed to run lots of boost but that is easily accomodated in the chip.

I find it amusing that back in the day when I was telling people to run 28+ PSI of boost people thought I had fell off my rocker, which more or may not be the case anyway, however, now people running that amount of boost is commonplace.

I guess though, back to your question, that the answer is to have someone do a chip set up around your combination and usually it's pretty easy to maximize the power based on your modifications.

P.S. - Lose the CapsLock key please.

 

[Mile Hi GN]

I'll chime in here, and add one more piece to the equation. For the sake of discussion, let's assume adequate fuel.

Recently at the track I did the high timing / low boost thing. 28-30 degrees of lead in low gear and 27 degrees in high gear (you gotta love that T+/E), here is what I came away with - your results may vary

"Run as much timing as you can get away with within the sweet spot of your turbo"

The stock turbo is going to start to lose efficiency beyond the 22-24 PSI range. Much more boost than that and it will start really heating up the intake charge. So, let's set the stocker at 22-24 PSI and crank in the timing from 26 to 28 or even 30 degrees. Turbo is in it's sweet spot - lots of timing, let's go fast.

The bigger turbos are going to have a sweet spot from 24-30 PSI, some don't even wake up until 24 PSI. So, let's get the bigger turbo's in the sweet spot and come off the timing to the 24 or 22 degree range.

I don't think that 28 PSI and 20 degrees would be a good stock turbo combination. I know 30 degrees and 21 PSI is not a good PTE-51 combination

I ran good numbers with high timing and lower boost - but no bests. My best passes have been with lower timing (24 degrees) and boost up where the PTE-51 starts to sing.

 

[salvageV6]

Lance what boost did ya run the 11 sec. slip with? What timing?
I assume it's with the 51?

TIA

 

[87T]

Thanks for the help I'm waiting for my power plate and some dry weather to do more scan runs before I do any changes to my set-up,,,,sorry about using the capslock button, did not know I was yelling at everyone, maybe to many years around Naval aircraft has made my brain deaf,seaya around

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Originally posted by salvageV6
Lance what boost did ya run the 11 sec. slip with? What timing?
I assume it's with the 51?

Hey Alan

Of the 21 passes I have made since installing the PTE-51 / .63 in April of 2001, 12 of them have been in the 11's (57%) with the best ET in my signature. I have run a best MPH of 114.66 on a 11.87 pass. I did not run a single 11 with my old PTE-44 / .63, the 51 was the nudge my combination needed.

So far my best pass came with an older 22 degree extender chip, with Spark "base" adjusted +2 degrees for a total of 24 degrees. WOT Spark was set to 0 - no change.

Boost was set to 24 PSI in first and second and scaled back about 2 PSI in 3rd via BstC. I have BstC set to come on as early as possible. I can even get the red activation light if I quickly stab the throttle in Park

MAF "Base" is 1 "richer idle" (Street and Strip), and WOT MAF was set on 3 - 6% rich. Idle BLM's are in the 135 range with a good BLM matrix during normal driving. Fuel pressure was 45 line off with the MSD 50's. BLM's lock at 128 at WOT.

Pure 116 in the tank, O2's were flat in the 780's with no knock, not even a tickle on the 2-3 shift. 60 foot time was a 1.658, good air, good track.

I'm still shooting for that 26 / 26 "thang" with this turbo. But I have come across a snag, I'm picking up a repeatable detonation spike at 93 to 100 MPH with 26 to 27 degrees of lead in 3rd gear - even with lower boost. I'm not locking the converter so I'm not real sure what is going on. I've been so busy this year I've only been able to get to the track once for my little timing test.

Still lots of tuning and testing that needs to be done but I believe she has an 11.50 in her if I can match up a 1.6 60 ft. with a clean 26 PSI pass and 26 degrees of lead. But that may be just wishful thinking, work it, work it, work it.

You have to tune your butt off to go fast up here on the mountain

 

[salvageV6]

I was running 24psi. with 24-26* timing with my PTE51 too. A mix of pump 94 and unleaded GT100 and alky.

I just need the 1.6 60ft. times to get a chance at an 11.

2.1K ft. there, just a hill to you.

Thanks I was gonna guess 24* too.

 

[blackbuick87]

Is that 2.1 60ft with slicks or are you trying to do it on DR's?

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

i can say that the 26/26 setup makes real good power with the 51

i ran strait vp116 when i turned it up there but only got to feel a few pulls with it so never got a pass..i didnt see any knock at 26# 26 degrees

good luck fellers...RED

 

[TurboDave]

Lance, you might want to try some different fuel.

You and I run very very close to the same set-up, 'cept for your bigger turbo. I've always prefered to run timing at 29/27 for many years, and I DO LOCK my torque converter. (See our mph difference)

Of course, there's always that pesky altitude thing too.

I've tried on a couple of occasions running VP-C16, but had almost the same problem you do. Had a nasty but persistent knock retard showing up in 3rd gear. Mine on most times was a little different though. Had a spike at the shift into third, and another biggy at the TCC lock up point a few seconds later.

To my good luck, I couldn't get C16 one day and went to another local supplier and got some Unocal 114. Since that day, I've never looked back. I can't pretend to explain why the Unocal 114 is so much better than the C16, BUT IT IS.

Now with my timing in the 29/27 setting (my extender is a 23/21 chip, so I'm running the base swith in setting 3), I never see any knock retard at 25# of boost, and only when I start pushing 27# of boost do I start tickling the knock sensor.

May or may not work for you, but I'd recommend trying something other than C16. I was told by a "race fuels guy" (paraphrasing here) that the reason you start loosing performance/anti knock ability, it the very high octane fuels (approaching 118) are for very very high rpm engines (like pro stock) and as such, burn very fast. Too fast for our LOW rpm applications.

Made some sense to me, and may be why my car has never like C16 as well as the Unocal 114.

 

[salvageV6]

That's 2100 ft. elevation I was posting not a 2.1 60ft. although I have had those too!

I used the Nittos and best so far was 1.89 60ft. Most were in the 2.0-2.1 range. I don't heat them up enough I don't think.

Car has only been run 11 times so far. Prolly try racing her one more time.

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Originally posted by TurboDave
Lance, you might want to try some different fuel..<snip>..and went to another local supplier and got some Unocal 114. Since that day, I've never looked back.

Thanks Dave, I'll give that some thought. My reaction was to head in the opposite direction, from 116 to 118. There are a few guys around here that swear they are quicker with the 114 than any other fuel.

I've always prefered to run timing at 29/27 for many years, and I DO LOCK my torque converter. (See our mph difference)

I would love to get in a pass with those timing numbers at 25-26 PSI. I have never locked the converter at the track due to fear of fragging my 2800 GSCA "Red Stripe".

I am tempted to lock the converter if for no other reason than to reduce the trap RPM's. She is winding pretty tight in the traps with the 26" tire.

The "repeatable" 93-100 MPH retard spike is a real mystery

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Originally posted by blackbuick87
Is that 2.1 60ft with slicks or are you trying to do it on DR's?

That's salvageV6's 60 foot time when running those coveted "Blizzak" snow tires

 

[salvageV6]

That would be pretty good for me!

My first time racing I had two 2.45 60ft. times with the Nittos.

Good thing I had 11 runs that day.

 

[NC87GN]

I'd like to share what I've experienced. I have burnt chips with low timing high boost and high timing low boost for my 87 GN (51, 3000 stall, stock heads, cam, alky kit, etc..). I tune for less than 2 degrees of knock in 1st and 2nd and 0 in 3rd and 4th. I prefer high timing low boost (25 degrees @ 22#) compared to (18 degrees @ 26#). Burning chips for some locals I've seen 18 degrees at 26# run great MPH but lousy 60' times (1.8-2.0). Running 25 degrees @ 22# I seen great 60' times but MPH dropped off. IMO if you limited to 1/8 mile track run high timing moderate boost. In the 1/4 mile run as much timing as you can with the turbo's sweet spot (Also stated by Mile High GN ). The pt51 is rated at 26#.. This is all based on running Alky and pump gas. Just my .02

Mike Banas
87GN

 

[c&cgn]

Originally posted by Mile Hi GN


Thanks Dave, I'll give that some thought. My reaction was to head in the opposite direction, from 116 to 118. There are a few guys around here that swear they are quicker with the 114 than any other fuel.

I would love to get in a pass with those timing numbers at 25-26 PSI. I have never locked the converter at the track due to fear of fragging my 2800 GSCA "Red Stripe".

I am tempted to lock the converter if for no other reason than to reduce the trap RPM's. She is winding pretty tight in the traps with the 26" tire.

Hey Lance, its been awhile since we swapped any data on the T+ and Extender combo. I have made a few changes since the last time we traded info.

I ran the 11.38 @ 117 in my sig using the Extender with 29/27 and 24-25psi on my PTE52. I have a good lockup convertor and used 28" slicks to keep the rpm's down.

I did all of this with C16 and wouldn't use anything else. I have never had any KR whatsoever. A few other guys have tried Sunoco race gas and no matter what octane level, from 110-117 they always seem to get some KR. But, every car is different. Dave's car doesn't like it, and mine loves it, what can I say?

Don't know what to say about your KR though? Have you emailed Bob about it to see what he suggests? Good luck.

 

[87GN_70GS]

Well here's the answer: Start off with high timing in say 1st and 2nd with moderate boost. Then switch to lower timing in 3rd and 4th and bring on the boost.

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Yo Clayton!

Originally posted by c&cgn
I ran the 11.38 @ 117 in my sig using the Extender with 29/27 and 24-25psi on my PTE52. I have a good lockup convertor and used 28" slicks to keep the rpm's down.

That is a seriously stout pass, you are scaring the 10's man. Did you pick up with the 28" tire? Did you do any back to backs versus the 26" tire? What are your trap RPM's with the big tire and lock-up?

I'm thinking that a 28" tire would be a logical next move for my combination.

Don't know what to say about your KR though? Have you emailed Bob about it to see what he suggests? Good luck.

I need to get with Bob on a few things. I just haven't had the time to record some data files, put it together and discuss it with him.

I've got the repeatable knock still on the table, I am chasing an extremely random "pop" or hesitation and a few other things.

So many issues....so little time.

 

[c&cgn]

Originally posted by Mile Hi GN
Yo Clayton!


That is a seriously stout pass, you are scaring the 10's man. Did you pick up with the 28" tire? Did you do any back to backs versus the 26" tire? What are your trap RPM's with the big tire and lock-up?

I am not really sure what to say. My best pass several weeks before that one, using the 26" tires and with my convertor being way too loose was an 11.55 @ 117mph. It was at 1700' elevation. The 11.38 was done at a sea level track on a good air day and I added the 28" slciks and had the convertor tightened. No back to back tests, although I kinda wish I did that but the track that lets us get away with 11's w/o a bar is 4 hours away.

Trap rpm's with the 28's and locked convertor were 51-5200 which is still a little high for my stock cam but might fit nicely with a 206-206 down the road.

BTW, 60' on the 11.55 was a 1.62 and the 11.38 was 1.55

I'm thinking that a 28" tire would be a logical next move for my combination.

I would think it would help you out some. You're using a 200 club cam, right?

I need to get with Bob on a few things. I just haven't had the time to record some data files, put it together and discuss it with him.

I've got the repeatable knock still on the table, I am chasing an extremely random "pop" or hesitation and a few other things.

So many issues....so little time.

I know the feeling. If I can be of any help let me know.

Take it easy....

Clayton