Blown&Injected
Active Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
The rods need to be checked. If they are OK then that is why not to cut.
My machine shop said WHAT!!
- Thread starter boostingbuick
- Start date
To add to this....being a "buick machinist" or a "chevy machinist" or a "mazda" machinist has nothing to do with anything. Having a 100,000 dollar honing machine or some retrofitted 1945 airplane motor honing machine bought at an auction or whatever, doesnt matter. Dont be seduced by shiny machinery or someone who deliberately uses alot of big industry terminology to sell you on the notion that he knows his ****. Ive met so many people who talk a big game, yet have no talent. If you truly know what you're doing, you can pull off anything with any **** equipment, as long as the equipment isnt severely damaged. "The crank, rods, mains, and cylinders still need to be true wether it be a turbo diesel, SBC, or a TR engine" A diesel motor is going to require very different tolerances than a SBC. Yes, the journals should always be true, but the tolerance requirements are very different. Especially when running 100psi of boost and 18:1 compression, lol.
There also isnt some universal machining standard all must live by. Different engines with different loads/powerbands have different needs. There are machining tolerance books that every machinist has to refer to. If your machinist doesnt have this book, dont walk away. RUN. He will likely be some chevy guy who figures what applies to a chevy, must apply to any fast motor. A low rpm pushrod turbo motor creates alot of cylinder pressure at low rpm's, (nothing compared to a turbo diesel though) so the oiling needs are much different than a 7000rpm 327 small block chevy that needs max oiling at 7000rpm. It needs tighter tolerances to provide resistance to oil shearing in the main and rod journals at low rpm. If you run loose chevy clearances, oil pressure will be dangerously low (for a TR motor) in the power range you need it the most, and to compensate, you'll need a high volume oil pump. Then you run the oil pan dry because its pumping up faster than it can drain back, unless you open up all the return galleys and channels. You need enough oil pressure to keep the rod and main journal floating on a bed of oil. With loose clearances, it'll be riding on a bed of metal called the bearing.
The line bore needs to be checked front to back as well as the shape of the bore.
boostingbuick
Going to be buried in this.
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2002
Befor this gets out of hand, Yes it dislodged the bearing and spun it, sort of. The crank could almost be polished, but there was a small pit. It did not tear anything up and is being inspected. But the story is based on the fact he told me---- IT'S NOT MAKING 500 HORSE AND IT WON'T----that pi$$ed me off. He told me just caused it feels fast that the only way to prove how disappointed I will be is to put it on his dyno, engine dyno. Can he macine it right, I have been told that he is good. Just can't believe that you have never heard of a fast buick does not mean I don't have one.
Blown&Injected
Active Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
To be more clear - I did not say "universal standards". And yes, there certainly are generally accepted principles, Industry Standards etc. - this is not to be confused with the specification of any particular engine.
While each engine has its own set of specifications and tolerances, the machine shop must still maintain some basic machining standards and procedures to achieve the desires specs.
Seems like most of the well respected builders on this site are more in line with what many would be quick to call SBC specs with comments like "we have never seen an engine fail due to too loose bearing clearances."
Also have to add as one that uses one - No problems with my HV Oil Pump and no drain back mods
While each engine has its own set of specifications and tolerances, the machine shop must still maintain some basic machining standards and procedures to achieve the desires specs.
Seems like most of the well respected builders on this site are more in line with what many would be quick to call SBC specs with comments like "we have never seen an engine fail due to too loose bearing clearances."
Also have to add as one that uses one - No problems with my HV Oil Pump and no drain back mods
that is a good question...My first motor was taken to a great machinest one of the best around....for Chevy motors.....I did not know any better....thought all cranks could be done the same.....as well as prepping the block...what did I learn....take it next time...a few months later...to someone that works on Turbo Buicks....i would just double check that he knows its a Turbo crank and it need to be cut differently than a N/a crank...
Blown&Injected
Active Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
WTH are you talking about? It needs to be treated just like any rolled fillet crank and that is not just a turbo type crank
that is what I am talking about...was machined and put back together as an SBC was real sloppy and wiped out the mains in about 1500 miles...come to find out later...he did not know about the Turbo crank having such tight tolerances...I knew nothing about oil pressure or clearances 10 years ago...that is WTH I am talking about...
Does this machinist have any experience with TR or TTA. If not I would not let him touch the crank. There are a lot of good machinists when it comes to a SBC, but our motors are not SBC. There is a guy on this forum with a stock long block with valve springs and I believe a te61 turbo with 50 lbs injectors. With c16 and 29 lbs of boost convertor locked he put 529hp and 649torque to the the wheels at some where around 4500rpm. There is also a guy out there (al the tinman) with a stock long block with I believe a ta51 65lbs injectors that has run 10.60's. Now that is flat out screaming. I also have a 13-1 sbc roller motor that runs 10.90's with a spool, 4800stall 4.88s. my gn is only 3 tenths slower and I don't smell like gas, have a headache from all the noise and can run anywhere and get 23mpg in town with air. The GN is the most incredible car for the money in terms of straight line acceleration. Decent condition GN 13k, turbo 750, fm ic 750, injectors and chip 400, transwork and convertor 1200 if you do the work to the trans yourself another 2k for misc supporting hardware, and 400 for slicks. The ability to drive from NY to California, get 25 mpgs and run 10's priceless. God I love these cars.
Blown&Injected
Active Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
Got some news for you, sloppy does not work for any crank and I did not finish reading the post under yours because it sounded like another poster that for some reason believes that only Buick shops are not sloppy.
I think the poster was saying that the clearances for SBC are larger. There are many good machinists when it comes to SBC's. I have an SBC swap meet parts that runs 10.90's on motor and 9.90's on the hose. My opinion and take that with a grain of salt have a buick guy do your machining for a TR it is a different animal then a sbc. You're one hundred percent correct in your comment about sloppy machining its bad for your lawn mower let alone your performance engine.
as you know,,,a SBC rebuild can be a little looser than a 109 block,,,thats what my guy did not understated,, thought an engine builder could do anything did not rolll the fillets,,hence the problem...tolreneces are so tight on the turbo block and crank,,,you get sloppy,,,bam,,,there goes the crank,..just want to make sure is does not make my mistake DAN SMITH did this one right.....
Blown&Injected
Active Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
Seems like something is missing from this story so I must ask - What did your bore gauge and mics say? Certainly you at least Plasti-gauged it.
did nothing because I knew nothing,,,took his word that he knew what he was doing,,,only had the car for six months,,,internet was not around...a freind said he knew this great guy...and I let him do,it....ans he still does graet sbc ans bbc motors,,,,
turbo3.8monza
New Member
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2006
That machine shop doesn't know crap, I'm making about 350hp on a N/A carbed motor. That was my first buick build and its not that radical, its idles at 950-1000 rpm in gear with a noticeable lope but my power brakes still work fine and averaging mid to high 20's MPG's. I'm using the GN bottom end except for the pistons (about 10:1 comp.), not bad for buick newbee
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
I strongly agree that there is no value added by harrassing this business.
The majority of TR owners have too much class to do such a thing.
Classy move Lee, thanks for your efforts.
Blown&Injected
Active Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
Well then it is a stretch to place blame on sloppy crank machining.
All I'm saying is that people are quick to blame the machine shop and then all the spooky talk about our special engines makes me want to yak - it is BS. This is not to say that they are all perfect but even the best make mistakes - That is why all the work needs to be checked.
and that there is the problem...I did not know any better at that time...gave it to a well known machines shop...expecting him to do it right....why would I need to check his work.....thats what he does for a living.....
Blown&Injected
Active Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
Look at my first post to this thread - Post Number 20, on page one.
Posts up to #18 were about leading an organized bash on a machine shop, #19 where corsair brought some order to the thread and #20 - I agreed.
I am certainly not bashing you for not knowing, it sounds, however, like you are still not sure why it died but are ready to place blame in the machine shop for a bearing clearance issue that was never verified either way.
