New best:Talon on Meth

[Hyboost4Banger]

Last night was the first time out to the drags since installing Razors kit. The results of which I am impressed. The car always felt faster, but I had no time slips to back it up. I am running faster now on Oregon 92 octane and straight meth than my old times in my signature which was on race fuel and DIY aquamist water injection. Last night was very warm, 90+ 'f and 20% humidity @ 7 pm, cooling off as the sun went down to probably 75'f @ midnite. The warmest it gets in this part of the country. Despite the heat and a faulty idle switch, not allowing launch control. My best is as follows.

RT .429
60' 1.723
1/8 7.613
mph 91.41
1/4 11.751
mph 120.83

Same basic set up as last year (*see note below)

Stock cams, 20' timing, 30 psi boost. ball bearing FP 3052 turbo, one m-15 jet, capped pump, conservative alky settings, std. bore 2.0 ltr. 4cyl


So my hats off to Razor and his help. It appears I knocked .2 off my time and upped my trap almost a mile an hour. I still have some (alot) tuning to do and expect with a really good launch, cooler air temps, maybe a bit more boost I could run a 11.5, then I will have to put the cage in.

(*) A little background info.......When I first got Razors kit last fall I ran two jets, an m-15 and a m-10. The car absolutely-friggen-ripped @ 35 psi. pump capped, turnon @ 2.5 psi, gain @ 4.pm. Disaster struck. Something about 35 psi. no knock, DSM rev limiting fuel cut and a 40' f day bent #3 con rod into a pretzel. Despite the quirk, setback, and quickie engine rebuild I have overcome and live to thrive. Alky is like anything else habitual. Too much can be a bad thing.

Mark

 

[Razor]

Mark.. way to go. Man the amount of DSM's on the stuff is unreal. You guys push the limits of these motors like no other group i've ever dealt with. Really wild how many will push that 35 PSI envelope.

AEM is in your future.. and a GT35r.. and .. hehe .. as it will make the car so much faster..

Again congrats..

Whats a cap'd pump

BTW i'm working on a theory that the rod issue may be from an ignition related malady. As you know if you dont fire a cylinder the crank "yanks" down the piston.. Do this enough.. bad things can happen. There is very little area on the bottom of a piston. This is the case with circle track cars that run colder plugs.. then when they idle for extended time.. fouling the plugs.. then hammering the motor... bad things happen. The EVO's have this issue with their ignition systems.

 

[Hyboost4Banger]

Hey thanks Razor! I'd be a much poorer man thanks to you. Have you priced race-fuel lately?

capped pump = pump with plate

I forgot to mention my car full is weight (3340 lbs.) and equipped w/ 7 yr old all season economy tires. :wink:


On my 11.7 sec run, the only run @ 35 psi. boost, in 4 th gear I think my ignition started to blow out. I expirienced stuttering and a knock spike. I am going to install one heat range colder NGK 9's and gap down to .028" and add new wires.

I currently run one M-15 jet. I figure I make 450 hp. My car felt faster when I ran 2 jets. I am really temped to switch back to dual nozzles but am a little scared of the DSM ignition "Malady". My rods and pistons are forged and brand new. I don't need any more trophy-tortured tuned-wall-hanging engine parts.

Any ideas? ( besides installing an AEM)

Mark

 

[bruce]

One thing that you want to figure out about a bent rod, if at all possible, is if it was a compression loading, or in tension when it failed..

Some wildly general notions are, a rod bent in compression, can bent *alot*, a rod bending due to tension, usually tries tearing apart, just before it lets loose. It's much harder to break a rod in compression, then in tension.

Now the difference is, compression is from too much pressure before TDC, and Tension is from loading after TDC. With really high boost, just about any pre-ignition can bend a rod in compression. Tension loads in the N/A world are during throttle lifts like during shifts, or at the end of the track (shutdown). It takes looking at alot of bent rods (well for me it did), to understand the how much a piston is pulling against a closed throttle plate. Now, with that said, even thou, you might be running alot of boost, that doesn't guarantee how well the cylinders being filled, so the tension loads might be higher then you expect. Combine that with any per-ignition and when you push the envelope, you can truely pretzel a rod.

Hope that wasn't just going over the blantantly obvious, too many folks.

PS If you want to see some bent rods, work with a Tractor Pulling Team....
It's incredible how they bend some rods, that look to be totally bullet proof.

 

[bruce]

Any ideas? ( besides installing an AEM)

If you're fighting a ignition issue, then you have to resolve that before doing anything. It can skew a WB reading, and you can totally miss the tune.

You haven't mentioned a WB, or EGTs, so they're the *must do's* after curing the ignition problem, IMO.

Depending on what and how you tune there comes a point, where you just have to have the right code to support your engine. Anything less then the right code, and you're going to get into a losing battle. Not many oems (that I know of), allow their *stuff* to be tweaked very far, and some go to great lenghts to prevent owners, and even gurus from defeating their code. They have to look at things from the point of warranties, so they just have to be clever, in some reguards.

 

[Hyboost4Banger]

One thing that you want to figure out about a bent rod, if at all possible, is if it was a compression loading, or in tension when it failed..

Some wildly general notions are, a rod bent in compression, can bent *alot*, a rod bending due to tension, usually tries tearing apart, just before it lets loose. It's much harder to break a rod in compression, then in tension.

Now the difference is, compression is from too much pressure before TDC, and Tension is from loading after TDC. With really high boost, just about any pre-ignition can bend a rod in compression. Tension loads in the N/A world are during throttle lifts like during shifts, or at the end of the track (shutdown). It takes looking at alot of bent rods (well for me it did), to understand the how much a piston is pulling against a closed throttle plate. Now, with that said, even thou, you might be running alot of boost, that doesn't guarantee how well the cylinders being filled, so the tension loads might be higher then you expect. Combine that with any per-ignition and when you push the envelope, you can truely pretzel a rod.

Thanks for the good info Bruce. I never put much thought into "why" rods bent other than being weak. (When they do bend and ruin good parts it makes me feel sad, commonly accompanied by a sharp onset of pocketbook pain.) I am sure my stock rod was bent due to pre-ignition compression stresses. It was bent "s" fashion in mid-beam both vertical directions. I monitor my 02's and knock literally like a hawk. I aim for .80-.82. (And yes, I know I need a wide band. ) When my rod bent last Jan. there was NO indication. No knock..... .86 O2's,... it was 40 f. cold and clear, and I was running 35 psi. 2 alky jets spraying full blast, got wheel spin, and hit the DSM fuel cut rev-limiter. The saving grace was my block was spared. Bent the rod, broke a piston oil squirt nozzle, small divot in lower bore web from rod rub. I am so thankful. I got off easy. Like you said....about factory programming.....the factory programmed fuel cut induced some pre-igntion. Not sure how to get around that other than to avoid it or switch to stand alone system.

thanks,
Mark

 

[bruce]

the factory programmed fuel cut induced some pre-igntion. Not sure how to get around that other than to avoid it or switch to stand alone system.

That's dangerous.
I kinda doubt a factory call would allow pre-ignition under any circumstance. *Normally*, they do a fuel cut, which is not the same as going lean. With no fuel there is no, or not much of a combustion event so there's no pre-ignition/ detonation.

BTW, Acoustic Knock Sensors are deaf to pre-ignition. The only way to *see* it is in doing plug readings, and slowly building a tune.....

 

[Hyboost4Banger]

That's dangerous.
I kinda doubt a factory call would allow pre-ignition under any circumstance. *Normally*, they do a fuel cut, which is not the same as going lean. With no fuel there is no, or not much of a combustion event so there's no pre-ignition/ detonation.

BTW, Acoustic Knock Sensors are deaf to pre-ignition. The only way to *see* it is in doing plug readings, and slowly building a tune.....

I know. It is dangerous. I doubt the Mitsubishi engineers forsaw what these cars could do. The factory wasn't planning on me running 35 psi. .....hitting the factory fuel cut rev-limiter @ 8200 rpm.......with Razors Alky control kit m-15 and m-10 spraying straight meth @ 150 psi. I am sure the hot combustion chamber parts, lots of boost, lots of meth, and no or very little fuel @ 8200 rpm fuel cut causes the pre-ignition. I am not sure how to fix this. I could cut power to the shur-flo pump @ rev limit ? I'm not sure if it could shut down the meth flow quick enough. I fear the dribbling as the pump winds down may still induce pre-igntion. I am looking for more ideas. So far my best idea was to install forged rods, pistons, a 4 layered stainless steel headgasket, and ARP fasteners.

You Buick guys have simular rev-limiter issues ( Seems kinda common that Buick head gasket blowouts occur if the auto-transmission slips ) The advantage of automatic equipped Buicks is .....They don't seem to hit the rev-limiter as much, and if they do, there are 6 rods and 3.8 liters ( vs: 4 rods and 2.0 liters) to soak up the pre-ignition stresses.


From what I have learned lately since the meth addiction hit the DSM circles..... it seems that one m-15 is the most you can safely run on a 2.0 4 cyl. It seems Rev-limiter reliable. Any more meth than that, you risk a thrown rod.

I think my car would be faster with two jets....It certainly felt faster.

I don't want to risk it though.

For now, I'm going to concentrate on a good-safe tune and maybe more boost
(and just one-jet :frown: )


Thanks,
Mark

 

[Razor]

Jerry found the fix. Ball bearing turbo, AEM, no rev limiter. Runs twin nozzles zero issues.

Ball bearing turbo keeps the spool in between shifts. AEM allows him to dial 'er in :biggrin:

He went 108 in the 1/8..

 

[volvoman]

That sucks.. we ran fri too bad we could not have met up.

Last night was the first time out to the drags since installing Razors kit. The results of which I am impressed. The car always felt faster, but I had no time slips to back it up. I am running faster now on Oregon 92 octane and straight meth than my old times in my signature which was on race fuel and DIY aquamist water injection. Last night was very warm, 90+ 'f and 20% humidity @ 7 pm, cooling off as the sun went down to probably 75'f @ midnite. The warmest it gets in this part of the country. Despite the heat and a faulty idle switch, not allowing launch control. My best is as follows.

RT .429
60' 1.723
1/8 7.613
mph 91.41
1/4 11.751
mph 120.83

Same basic set up as last year (*see note below)

Stock cams, 20' timing, 30 psi boost. ball bearing FP 3052 turbo, one m-15 jet, capped pump, conservative alky settings, std. bore 2.0 ltr. 4cyl


So my hats off to Razor and his help. It appears I knocked .2 off my time and upped my trap almost a mile an hour. I still have some (alot) tuning to do and expect with a really good launch, cooler air temps, maybe a bit more boost I could run a 11.5, then I will have to put the cage in.

(*) A little background info.......When I first got Razors kit last fall I ran two jets, an m-15 and a m-10. The car absolutely-friggen-ripped @ 35 psi. pump capped, turnon @ 2.5 psi, gain @ 4.pm. Disaster struck. Something about 35 psi. no knock, DSM rev limiting fuel cut and a 40' f day bent #3 con rod into a pretzel. Despite the quirk, setback, and quickie engine rebuild I have overcome and live to thrive. Alky is like anything else habitual. Too much can be a bad thing.

Mark

My brothers GN 240 z ran friday at pir. He pounded down a 10.91 with 92oct. The t-66 was running out of fuel too. I should pm you next time I head down to pir with my new tranny and hope to have soon razors kit. As for now its up on stands, blew second gear. :biggrin:
Chris

Oh one other thing mark Get a EGT You can't really tune alky with out it This is the one I got and love it.

 

[85 TR]

do you need a egt if your running a wide band ?

 

[Hyboost4Banger]

Volvoman....I was standing right there,.. I watched the GN 240z run the 10.9 @ 124?, seemed like there was some shifting issues.?, most passes were 12.1's. That thing will rip if it gets sorted out!

PS. Sorry man. I have a good analog EGT in the car. I find it pretty worthless for accute tuning.

Razor.......tell me more about this 2 jet AEM equipped DSM with 591 to the wheels going for 600 whp this week..... with 2 m-15's. I need lots of details. (No skimping on info. ) I'm dying to get another jet on my car and be able to run safe.

PS. My GT series FP 3052 turbo is ball bearing., just a little smaller than a GT 35.... complements my stock cams.

Mark

 

[Razor]

Razor.......tell me more about this 2 jet AEM equipped DSM with 591 to the wheels going for 600 whp this week..... with 2 m-15's. I need lots of details. (No skimping on info. ) I'm dying to get another jet on my car and be able to run safe.

PS. My GT series FP 3052 turbo is ball bearing., just a little smaller than a GT 35.... complements my stock cams.

Mark

Hey nothing wrong with stock cams.. they just require a little more force to fill the cylinders

Guys name is Brad Brooks in Spring Field VA. I'll see if I can get further info.. he's a tuner by trade. He got hooked on Alky tuning Jerry's car on the highway. Ya know.. once you taste a little.. you keep pushing..

My understanding is to elimate the rev limiter completely so you dont bounce off of it.

I'll keep you in mind next time I talk with him.. promise.

 

[GDNF2ET]

If you could find an e-prom ECU and get keydriver to burn a custom chip you can eliminate the factory fuel cut...It definitetly works...

 

[unix_punk]

Dunno if anyone has mentioned this, but all of my DSM buddies all run DSMLink... Its almost a standalone, but technically is a piggyback. All you will need is an eprom ecu and about 500 bucks. Lets you fully adjust maf, ve, timing, fuel, also has nitrous control, which IMO could be used to for meth, stutterbox, anti-lag, all the works... check that out before buying an aem. my buddies are pushing GT3565's on link with alky. one is working on the math to goto nitrometh...

 

[Hyboost4Banger]

Hey thanks guys,

I have heard of DSM link. My buddy just got it, that, along with a new long rod 9:1 2.4 liter short block installed....he ran a 10.9 @ 126 on a FP red last weekend. I do have an E-prom Ecu and plan on checking it out. I think I can also use a MSD Dis 2 with a two step, use the MSD for stutter and set the MSD spark rev cut just below my fuel rev cut and be safe.

I'll be taking the car out again soon.

Mark

 

[volvoman]

might be going to pir

Hey thanks guys,

I have heard of DSM link. My buddy just got it, that, along with a new long rod 9:1 2.4 liter short block installed....he ran a 10.9 @ 126 on a FP red last weekend. I do have an E-prom Ecu and plan on checking it out. I think I can also use a MSD Dis 2 with a two step, use the MSD for stutter and set the MSD spark rev cut just below my fuel rev cut and be safe.

I'll be taking the car out again soon.

Mark

One of the other buick guys is thinking about going on fri or sat. :biggrin:

 

[volvoman]

will be at pir on fri.

One of the other buick guys is thinking about going on fri or sat. :biggrin:

My cars on stands but I will be there along with another buick guy. Going to be there around 7:30 or so.

 

[kev_rm]

impressive numbers.

Just a quick "knock" against using a narrow band - 0.8V means virtually nothing other than it's not at 14.7:1. The voltage output of a narrow band is massively variable based on EGTs.