No Brakes!!

[ladyworeblack]

Hi, I'm New To All Of This, So I Hope I Am In The Right Place To Ask These Questions. Currently I Have No Brakes, My Mechanic Of 12 Years Told Me I Need To Replace My Powermaster Cyclinder, That He Says Is Disconitnued, (sounds About Right) And Hard To Find As A Rebuilt. Total Cost 2,500.00. I Don't Think So, Not In This Cars Lifetime. I Have Heard About Switching Over To A Regular Brake System. Help, I Am A Single Mom, Living In California, I Have Had My 87 Gn For 15 Years, Love It, And I Won't Sell It For No Amount Of Money, But Its Not Safe Driving With No Brakes, I Disconnected The Power Switch To The Master Unit, Because It Was Making Such A Horrible Noise. So I Am Driving With Manual Brakes. Kinda Like The Flinstones. Any And All Suggestions Would Be Appreciated. Thank You.
Joelle Aka Lady Wore Black

 

[TurboBuickSix]

Hi just do a search on "vacuum brake conversion" and that should pull up alot of posts on that subject. Basically the brake components from any 82-87 Regal,cutlass,monte etc will work and can purchased from a local wrecking yard for under 100.00 bucks. You can probably find someone from this board near you that will assist you with the installation for a very good price.Try to repost this in the "general Tech"section and you will get way more replies.

 

[excobraguy]

Hi, I'm New To All Of This, So I Hope I Am In The Right Place To Ask These Questions. Currently I Have No Brakes, My Mechanic Of 12 Years Told Me I Need To Replace My Powermaster Cyclinder, That He Says Is Disconitnued, (sounds About Right) And Hard To Find As A Rebuilt. Total Cost 2,500.00. I Don't Think So, Not In This Cars Lifetime. I Have Heard About Switching Over To A Regular Brake System. Help, I Am A Single Mom, Living In California, I Have Had My 87 Gn For 15 Years, Love It, And I Won't Sell It For No Amount Of Money, But Its Not Safe Driving With No Brakes, I Disconnected The Power Switch To The Master Unit, Because It Was Making Such A Horrible Noise. So I Am Driving With Manual Brakes. Kinda Like The Flinstones. Any And All Suggestions Would Be Appreciated. Thank You.
Joelle Aka Lady Wore Black

Never mind, saw where you unhooked the powermaster..............

 

[zeus87gn]

Yes, the Powermaster is expensive, but not that expensive.
It is also highly superior to vacuum brakes in my opinion.
It sounds like you mechanic is a little greedy.

A complet rebuild can be had for under $500 from Kirban Performance.
It carries a lifetime warranty through them.
https://secure.mysuperpageshosting.com/kirbanperformance.com/index1.htm
Click on the Catalog link to the left and then select Suspension, Brake & wheel parts.
Scroll down and you will see the PowerMaster picture.

The trick is setting up the replacement Powermaster properly for continued use.
See the link in my sig for setup procedures.
Feel free to give these to your machanic if you like.

I would be glad to answer any questions should you decide to stick with the PowerMaster.
It is a good unit, but must be cared for properly.

 

[ladyworeblack]

So, What Is Your Opinion Regarding Getting Away From The Powermaster And Converting Over To Just Vaccum, All The Other E-mails I Have Been Getting Are Total For The Conversion. Please Enlighten Me With Your Knowledge.
Thanks For Your Reply. Its Much Appreciated
Joelle

 

[TurboBuickSix]

I also agree with zeus that the PM is a superior unit performance wise and I still have and will try to keep mine as long as possible. However, you were looking to do it on the cheap and I assumed you did not race your car at a track like most do.I also agree your mechanic is unfair at that price.But seeing your car is stock and you probably won't bring it to a track and need to hold boost on the brakes.... so in your situation I would just go with the vacuum setup which anyone can agree is a more reliable setup.Search for 'red regal t' on this board he sells a kit to convert for around 100.00 bucks or so last time I checked. Then you can find an honest mechanic that knows these cars locally if your lucky.Good luck

 

[zeus87gn]

You asked for it.....

Remember, this is my opinion based on my own personal experience.

I have driven Turbo Regals with and w/out the vacuum system and and the PowerMaster will get my vote hands down every time. There isn't a vaccum system designed (that I know of) that has the reaction time of a properly functioning P/M. It is independent of the engine. Unlike the vacuum system that must have vacuum source (typically from the motor), it doesn't matter if the engine is running or not or is in boost or not. The key just has to be on and it is powered. It has a reserve capacity almost twice that of a vacuum system. Most don't realize it because they don't understand how it works.

The P/M has a bad reputation because it's not your average master cylinder. It's a high maintainence electro-hydraulic braking system. Conventional brake knowledge doesn't work with it. You can't just let it alone and fix it if it breaks. You have to do regular preventitive maintainence on it, keep good clear fluid in it and the air out of it. You have to time it every so often to make sure it is in good shape....kind of like a physical.

The only down side I am aware of with the PowerMaster is that when the 'power' is lost, it is a diffucult pedal to push. That is where everyone complains because it can be so hard to push that it feels like you can't stop. I have experienced this myself, but I now know how to keep it from happening.

Vaccum systems are reliable, there is no doubt there. But they give out too. They also will have a hard pedal under boost if they are getting thier vacuum from the engine. There is no vacuum in the engine while boosting. No brake system is perfect or will last forever. Our cars are 20+yrs old. How often will you see a neglected master cylinder last 20yrs? Just how well was it taken care of? All these things come into play. Not to mention that GM never designed the Regal to last as long as we have kept them. Being one myself, I don't hold a torch for GM engineers.

I have personally dealt with 2 of those Kirbans units. I dont much care for thier "rebuilt" pump motors, but they are a good unit overall. They stand behind them and are actually the best deal I am aware of right now.

---------

The choice is yours. If you want to keep your GN the conversation piece it has been for all these years, get another Powermaster and tell that greedy mechanic to get a clue and stop taking all your money. You need it for your kids. I know exactly where you are as my wife was right there when I met her.

$2500 for swapping a P/M is absolutely rediculous!! A complete P/M can be swapped out in about 30min. Setup time is a little longer, but can be done is less than a day. 6hrs - but I am slow. At $100/hr you would still be under $1000 when you get your refund for the core from Kirbans.

If you aren't worried about the authenticity of your GN go for the conversion. It will be cheaper (I can't argue it), average brake mechanics will understand it and know how to work on it when it comes time. Parts are readily available if whomever working on it knows what they are doing and what to look for.

There is also a ton of help, information and good people here on this board that will be glad to help.

Whew.....long winded eh?
Feel free to email me directly if you wish.

 

[buzzman]

i totally agree with Zeus, please do not pay $2500.00. If you stick with the pm, pick one up from kirban for $500.00. It should take no more than 90 minutes for a complete replacement and that includes bleeding. have your mechanic follow his bleeding procedure, he was a great helpl to me. plenty of help on this board if you have questions.

 

[87GNSteve]

Whatever you decide do one thing for sure....
GET A NEW MECHANIC!

In my estimation the most a place should charge for a Vacuum conversion is 100-200 labor
MAX cost of parts 200
300-400 total.

Power master install is
100-150 labor
MAX -600 parts
700- 750 total

These figures are generous with the parts because there might be some additional needs.
But whichever route make sure someone who is familiar with Turbo Buicks does the install.
I agree with the above poster who said try to find someone on here who lives nearby.
I personally have done the vacuum conversion and never looked back.

 

[DragulaGN]

Do we not have some one that lives near this lady that could give her a hand...I hate to see folks ripped off by a greedy mechanic.

 

[kh440]

2500 my fat butt!!!!!! that is about 3 times what it should cost.

Just to throw this out there: do you know for a fact that the entire unit is shot or is it just a problem with the accumulator ball? Zeus87 is dead on that these units are dependent on clean, clear fluid for proper operation (a fact Buick never really disclosed way back when and it bit 'em in the rear when they had to do a massive recall on them). It MAY be possible that all you need is a $150 accumulator and a thorough (and I mean thorough) brake fluid flush and you're good as new. Otherwise I lean towards the vacuum swap for daily/semi-daily drivers. I switched out my last two and love the firmer pedal feel. But definitely get a second opnion because this first one is either ignorant about these cars or just a crook.

 

[cruzn57]

ah shucks !

1st off, I'm in San Bernardino and can help.
2nd , I run a vacumn system on a race car and it works perfect!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd suggest buying the system from Red Regal on this board, he has a complete setup, every part needed, for a reasonable amount, ( I think its less than $175)
if you want to keep the powermaster setup, expect to send a few $$$ for parts, (accumulator, switches, etc)
everyone will tell you what works for them, you need to decide what is best for you. and what is in your price range.
as I said, I run the vac setup and couldn't be happier.
email me at cruzn57@yahoo.com
I'll give you a hand with this.

Lee

 

[DragulaGN]

Way to step up Lee...thats what makes this community great

 

[POWERBRAKEBOB]

Hydroboost Conversion

Buick Never Used A Standard Regal Vacuum Booster On Their Turbocharged Cars. Turbocharging A Vacuum Booster Is The Opposite Of How It Works. Vacuum Boosters Need Vacuum, And They Are Rated To Operate At 20" Of Vacuum. Hard To Find On A Turbo Motor. The Hydroboost Runs Off Of The Power Steering Pump Pressure, And Needs No Vacuum. The Stopping Power Is Superior To Any Other System, Including The Original Powermaster. They Deliver On Up To 2000psi, If You Apply It Hard Enough, And They Will Last 150,000 To 200,000 Miles, Easy. They Bolt Right On, And Just Need The Hoses Cut To Length. It Just Works. The Pedal Feel Is Great, And The Hydroboost Can Stop The Car At Any Speed. They Can Stop 14,000 Lb Trucks, Or 900 Hp Muscle Cars.

 

[87GNSteve]

Buick Never Used A Standard Regal Vacuum Booster On Their Turbocharged Cars. Turbocharging A Vacuum Booster Is The Opposite Of How It Works. Vacuum Boosters Need Vacuum, And They Are Rated ....................................................QUOTE]

Not the thread for a info-mercial
Post prices and see if you can help a fellow TR owner or not.

 

[zeus87gn]

Way to step up Lee...thats what makes this community great

+2

 

[zeus87gn]

Buick Never Used A Standard Regal Vacuum Booster On Their Turbocharged Cars. Turbocharging A Vacuum Booster Is The Opposite Of How It Works. Vacuum Boosters Need Vacuum, And They Are Rated ....................................................

Not the thread for a info-mercial
Post prices and see if you can help a fellow TR owner or not.

+22

 

[POWERBRAKEBOB]

Hydroboost Conversion

I Would Be Happy To Post Prices. If It Is O.k. To Post Them Here. I Offer The Hydroboost As A Quality And Safe Solution For The Powermaster Failures. If It Is O.k. To Post Prices Here, I Will. If It Is Not, Feel Free To P.m. Me. Our Web Is "powerbrakesonline.com"