non- L/U converter... WHY?

[DCVING 6]

just wondering what the advantages of a non-lockup converter is over a locking unit?

 

[Tow Man]

One advantage is that it weighs about 25 lbs less than a lockup unit which helps throttle response and quicker revs. The second advantage (at least to me) is drivability! I personally can't stand lockup converters! I absolutely HATE lugging the motor when climbing a hill.

I know a lot of folks here see big gains in manually locking the converter for 1/4mi performance, but I rather go with a taller tire or higher gear than to put up with the annoying constant lock and unlock in street driving! Besides, loosing 25 lbs of rotating weight will free up quite a bit of HP in itself!

Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. This is just my preference and opinion! I have personally gone 4 tenths quicker in the 1/4 just by changing converters from stock to a 3000 stall N/L

 

[turbo buicks]

how are non-L/U convertrs on long trips. 100 mile or more? does gas milage suffer? and does it accelerate transmission wear? thanks

 

[NASSTY]

A non l/u will will increase the rpms by about 200.So you might loose some fuel mileage.In race conditions,holding gas and brake a non l/u would be easier on a tranny.

 

[Tow Man]

They are fine on long trips! It will not accelerate trans wear as long as you use an additional trans cooler. A trans cooler would be recommended with any higher stall converter.

These cars get great gas mileage and the loss of 1 or2 MPG isn't that much of an issue.

 

[turboman38]

I'm not a tranny expert any means but I've been told that for a street car you should use a lock-up converter. Source of this info is a highly reputable tranny guy.

2NASSTYBUICKS, where did the 200 rpm figure come from? I only ask because I had a chance on a great deal on a 3200 stall vilgiante coverter and passed because it was non-lockup. I also have been told that non-lockup creates more heat which cause wear.

 

[Larry Smith]

I've been running a 3200 non L/U (Art Carr) convertor on the street since 1988 with no problems. Gas mileage does suffer, I don't care!! I agree with the other posters concerning the advantages. Two dis-advantages are, traction with a stock turbo is non-existant without a soft tire and with less rotating mass on the end of the crank, stalling can be a problem if you let off the gas too quickly. People who have ridden in, or driven my car, insist I must have more mods that I admit to because it is so much more " lively" than a stock car should be. I have driven from Detroit to South Carolina more than once and even taken the Blue Ridge parkway without generating enough heat to make a difference. ( Extra trans cooler) and the 200 rpm increase is about right according to my experience. Hope this info helps.
Larry

 

[turboman38]

Thanks Larry.

Maybe I should reconsider the Vigilante convertor. It has about 2000 miles on it and is a 9 and 1/2 inch convertor with a 3200 stall. If it's still available the cost was $325.

What do you think?

 

[Larry Smith]

I have no experience with any other convertor other than mine, but the price sure sounds good. I paid over $600.00 for my converter alone in 1988!!. Don't forget that you will also need a shift kit, a bigger pump and the lockup will have to be dis-connected (in my case, removed) to take advantage of the convertor. If you don't do the other mods, you will kill the trans in short order. Torque is multiplied greatly with a high stall convertor. If you are not a trans guy, you will have to pay to get the other stuff done. It's not "plug and play." You will also need to go with a taller tire to get the top end rpm's back into the ballpark. My original intention was to work my way up to a bigger turbo because back in those days many people, including myself, figured the stock turbo wouldn't last. I'm still waiting!!
Good luck,
Larry

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by 2NASSTYBUICKS
In race conditions,holding gas and brake a non l/u would be easier on a tranny.

Not sure what you mean by that

At the line, there's no locking anyway, so it's like a regular converter, and if the brake pedal is pushed (no matter the speed) the converter's going to unlock.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Tow Man
The second advantage (at least to me) is drivability! I personally can't stand lockup converters! I absolutely HATE lugging the motor when climbing a hill.

N/L

That problem can easilly be remedied. There's a patch floating around out there. Most chip makers worth their salt will know how to do it. It's called "easy unlock", it prevents that lugging on hills, but unlocking the converter easier than normal.

 

[bruce]

The TCC is an EPA, CAFE thing.
Just to lower emissions, and improve MPG.

It will extend tranny life if used as designed. Heat is the enemy of tranny fluid and the TCC is designed to eliminate the converter slippage.

If you don't like the way the TCC works, there's a number of tables to adjust it.

Mine acts just like a 5 Spd.
But, I gotta lot of work in it.

While weight is one issue, the other is about inertia, a small diameter multi disc lock up converter is the ultimate setup, good and cheap don't go in the same sentence when talking about them thou.

 

[NASSTY]

I got the 200 rpm figure from my friend who has a a 9 1/2" non l/u in his car.He said his rpms increased 200 . His is a Precision Industries.

 

[LIVE4MPH]

Tow Man, what are your best ETs/mph w/ your setup? At what boost level? I'm thinking of doing a very similar combo to yours.

 

[Tow Man]

Originally posted by LIVE4MPH
Tow Man, what are your best ETs/mph w/ your setup? At what boost level? I'm thinking of doing a very similar combo to yours.

I'll let you know as soon as I get it all back together! Turbo, injectors and intercooler are ready to go in but I got side tracked by some home repair projects

I'm hoping to at least get a run in before the track closes for the season.

 

[WE4]

Let me clarify a few things...

Originally posted by 2NASSTYBUICKS
A non l/u will will increase the rpms by about 200.So you might loose some fuel mileage.In race conditions,holding gas and brake a non l/u would be easier on a tranny.

First of all, no offense, but this is a bullshiit statement.
A stock d5 converter will drop 325-400 rpm upon LU
A stock d7 or d6 with STOCK stall speed will drop 200 or more.

Everything is relative to stall speed. Some 9X11's will drop 1500-2500 with a 3500 stall or better. I have 1 4500 stall that drops 2300.
The point is....... stall will determine the drop. Basically what it is telling you is the more drop when locked, the more inefficent that particular converter is. What you are losing in the rpm drop is the slip. Higher the stall, harder on lock up disc. PERIOD!
Now the gentlemen with the Carr 9" Non LU has had good luck because the combo works well with that amount of slip. He was lucky enough to hit on a combo that HE feels comfortable with and the car likes. That is great! However, for this gentlemen to condem something with the latest in todays technology, using 10 year old technology as a basis , I feel is unfair to judge. I KNOW that he would be just as happy if not more with todays technology in lock up's. I also respect the fact that it works well in his application and I dont think I would change either just to do it. However there might be a challenge there, lol.
This Wasn't meant to start a war, just to inform of the TRUTH how and why they work. Funny, I do find it tho, that after 15 years of arguing with the man ART CARR over lock vs non lock,( we go wayyyy back as friends) he is now coming out with a lock up. Makes one wonder don't it?


Bruce
WE4

 

[Tow Man]

Originally posted by 2NASSTYBUICKS
A non l/u will will increase the rpms by about 200.So you might loose some fuel mileage.

Hey Bruce,

I think 2NASSTY was refering to cruise rpm at a given speed, not the amount of rpm drop of lock-up. At least that's the way I understood it! Going from a L/U to a N/L, he is right! Cruise RPM will be a couple hundred RPM higher. ( The amount of slippage depends on stall of course) No L/U converter will lower cruise RPM beyond the final drive ratio of trans and rear.

The only other mod I want to do on my car is one of YOUR trannys. But I still don't think you could talk me into a lock-up! I have heard excellent reports about your 9-11's but I prefer the smooth and instant response given by the N/L's even at the expense of a tenth or 2 and a couple MPH.

I used an Art Carr converter in my first GN with great results and tire blistering performance. The turbo would spool so fast that driving in the rain was almost impossible! I realized a performance gain of 4 tenths from the converter alone! I'm not stuck on the Art Carr unit, but I'm stuck on N/L! Old technology doesn't make it bad technology or we would all be driving the Honda Hybrid! The GN is 15yr old tech and to this day it'll give anything out of detroit a great run for it's money. Hell, thats why I bought another one! The new junk is less than satisfying.

I guess I'm getting old and stuck in my ways. I always belived that if something works, stick with it

Talk to you soon! Vic

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Tow Man
Hey Bruce,

I think 2NASSTY was refering to cruise rpm at a given speed, not the amount of rpm drop of lock-up. At least that's the way I understood it! Going from a L/U to a N/L, he is right! Cruise RPM will be a couple hundred RPM higher. ( The amount of slippage depends on stall of course) No L/U converter will lower cruise RPM beyond the final drive ratio of trans and rear.

The only other mod I want to do on my car is one of YOUR trannys. But I still don't think you could talk me into a lock-up! I have heard excellent reports about your 9-11's but I prefer the smooth and instant response given by the N/L's even at the expense of a tenth or 2 and a couple MPH.

I used an Art Carr converter in my first GN with great results and tire blistering performance. The turbo would spool so fast that driving in the rain was almost impossible! I realized a performance gain of 4 tenths from the converter alone! I'm not stuck on the Art Carr unit, but I'm stuck on N/L! Old technology doesn't make it bad technology or we would all be driving the Honda Hybrid! The GN is 15yr old tech and to this day it'll give anything out of detroit a great run for it's money. Hell, thats why I bought another one! The new junk is less than satisfying.

I guess I'm getting old and stuck in my ways. I always belived that if something works, stick with it

Talk to you soon! Vic

Ya, but like Bruce says/implies. I'd bet you would be AMAZED by today's modern technology in torque converters that are out there for our cars.
Yes, "you CAN have your cake and eat it too". That is to say, all the wonderful characteristics you love so much in your present converter, plus all the added benefits of a lock up unit.

 

[WE4]

You know Dave...

You can send them to school, dress them up, and hold their hand, but... LOL

When I was a kid, we walked to school in the snow, barefoot, backwards, in gale force winds, with no jacket, and so on and so on... ROFLMAO!

And Vic, I wouldn't try to talk you into anything. The customer is "ALWAYS" right, correct?

Bruce
WE4

 

[NASSTY]

Thanks TOWMAN for helping clearify my statement.CRUISE RPMS at a given speed is what I was referring to.When I said he would see an increase of about 200 rpms,figured into that statement also I was assuming that he would be going from a 12" converter to a 9.5" .