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Big Stu

Flogged Donkey
Joined
May 20, 2004
Messages
900
I've been seeing a lot of good deals on new and used billet and titanium oliver rods around lately. Just unsure as to what I should be looking for that would work well in my motor. What length and so on do I need to keep in mind in case something good comes up again?:)
 
Come on.... I know there are plenty of guys out there that have run oliver's or know what I need to look for.:D I mean, they are cheap to buy right?:rolleyes: :confused:
 
Stu,

I have a set of 6.5 and you could go as short as 6.3.
I like the longer rod but you will need to clearance the block.
 
John,

Just wondering why you could not use a rod shorter than 6.3. Is it because piston skirt to crankshaft counter weight clearance?

The reason I ask is that I am in the process of a build up in which I am using a 3.59 stroke crankshaft and I was seriously considering using a 6.135 length rod.
 
David,

Here is an article that I read a little while ago.
Duttweiler told me that the rod lenght can also effect
the amount of timing you can throw at a motor.
Your rods would probably work ok, if i had not just moved I would get you the prefered leght from my motor sports book. I dont think I can find it now.


Rod/Stroke Ratio
by George Klass of Accufab Performance Parts and Accessories

February 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much has been written about rod/stroke ratios in the past and it seems to be discussed on a regular basis on the hardcore50 message boards.

The consensus of some so-called experts is that when it comes to connecting rods, “longer is better”. Well, longer IS better with many things, connecting rods not necessarily being one of them. There are many “ratios” pertaining to engine design, including compression ratios, rocker arm ratios, bore to stroke ratios, horsepower to cubic inch ratios, and on and on. Exactly where rod to stroke ratios fit in to the equation depends on who you talk to and how smart they really are.

Much of the discussion over the last 20-years on the subject was centered around a theory first written about by Smokey Yunick, a more than reputable engine builder. Smokey wrote that a longer connecting rod length “FOR A GIVEN STROKE, MIGHT be an advantage under CERTAIN SPECIFIC applications.” Smokey never said, “a longer rod was always better”.

And yet, for years, some engine builders have decided (and shouted from the mountain tops) that a “better rod stroke ratio” was the most important aspect of a high horsepower engine, regardless of other, much more important factors of the engine design.

Even Smokey, in his later life, admitted that most of this “rod/stroke stuff” was either taken out of context or mostly malarkey.

But in the interest of malarkey, I have compiled a chart showing various American production V-8 engine specifications, and listing their bore, stroke, connecting rod length (center to center) and, their rod/stroke ratios.

Let us assume that we are looking to install a V-8 engine into our 1932 Ford 5-window coupe. We want both power and reliability, since we plan on doing a little drag racing and also some cruising. Those of you who think that the higher the rod/stroke ratio, the better, should ponder this question. For our coupe, would you rather select a 239 inch Ford flathead (1.86:1 rod/stroke ratio) or a 351 inch Cleveland (1.65:1 ratio)? Does anyone think that the “better” rod/stroke ratio of the flathead is going to outweigh the advantage of the better design and 112 cubic inch displacement increase of the Cleveland?

On the Ford V-8 side, the “best” rod/stroke ratio listed on the chart was on the very first overhead valve V-8 produced by Ford, in 1954. This was the 239 cubic inch Y-Block engine that replaced the flathead V-8, and had a 2.03:1 rod/stroke ratio. A “great” rod/stroke ratio, but a pretty crappy engine in every other respect.

Anyway, a very wise man once said, regarding the “rod/stroke ratio controversy”, that the optimal rod/stroke ratio for a V-8 engine is “8-rods to one crank”.

Have fun perusing this chart. Some of the engines listed may bring back some great memories for you older guys. And for some of you younger guys, you don’t know what you missed.
:eek: :eek:
 
DISPLACEMENT BORE STROKE ROD LENGTH ROD/STROKE RATIO


AMC 287 3.75 3.25 6.375 1.961:1
AMC 327 4 3.25 6.375 1.961
AMC 290 3.75 3.28 5.875 1.791
AMC 304 3.75 3.44 5.875 1.707
AMC 343 4.08 3.28 5.875 1.791
AMC 360 4.08 3.44 5.875 1.707
AMC 390 4.17 3.57 5.858 1.641
AMC 401 4.165 3.68 5.858 1.591

BUICK 215 3.5 2.8 5.66 2.021
BUICK 322 4 3.203 6 1.873
BUICK 364 4.125 3.391 6.1 1.798
BUICK 401 4.187 3.64 6.22 1.708
BUICK 425 4.312 3.64 6.22 1.708
BUICK 430 4.187 3.9 6.6 1.692
BUICK 455 4.312 3.9 6.6 1.692

CADILLAC 331 3.81 3.63 6.625 1.825
CADILLAC 365 4 3.625 6.5 1.793
CADILLAC 390 4 3.875 6.5 1.677
CADILLAC 429 4.13 4 6.5 1.625
CADILLAC 472 4.3 4.06 6.75 1.662
CADILLAC 500 4.3 4.304 6.75 1.568

CHEVY 265 3.755 3 5.7 1.9
CHEVY 283 3.875 3 5.7 1.9
CHEVY 305 3.736 3.484 5.7 1.636
CHEVY 327 4 3.25 5.7 1.753
CHEVY 350 4 3.484 5.7 1.636
CHEVY 400 4.126 3.75 5.565 1.484
CHEVY 396 4.094 3.766 6.135 1.629
CHEVY 348 W 4.125 3.25 6.135 1.887
CHEVY 409 W 4.313 3.5 6.01 1.717
CHEVY 427 Z11 4.313 3.65 6.136 1.681
CHEVY 427 4.25 3.766 6.135 1.629
CHEVY 454 4.25 4 6.135 1.533
CHEVY 502 4.466 4 6.135 1.533

CHRYSLER 273 3.625 3.31 6.123 1.849
CHRYSLER 318 3.91 3.31 6.123 1.849
CHRYSLER 340 4.04 3.31 6.123 1.849
CHSLR. 346 HEMI 3.92 3.58 6.24 1.743
CHRYSLER 360 4 3.58 6.123 1.71
CHRYSLER 383 4.031 3.75 6.768 1.804
CHRYSLER 413 4.19 3.75 6.768 1.804
CHRYSLER 426 4.25 3.75 6.768 1.804
CHRYSLER 440 4.32 3.75 6.768 1.804
CHSLR. 426 HEMI 4.25 3.75 6.86 1.829

EARLY HEMIS
CHRYSLER 241 3.437 3.25 5.937 1.826
CHRYSLER 270 3.625 3.25 5.937 1.826
CHRYSLER 276 3.625 3.344 6.062 1.812
CHRYSLER 291 3.72 3.344 6.062 1.812
CHRYSLER 331 3.812 3.625 6.625 1.827
CHRYSLER 354 3.937 3.625 6.625 1.827
CHRYSLER 392 4 3.906 6.95 1.779

FORD 221 FLT HD 3.062 3.75 7 1.866
FORD 239 FLT HD 3.187 3.75 7 1.866
FORD 255 FLT HD 3.187 4 7 1.75
FORD 239 Y-BLK 3.5 3.1 6.324 2.038
FORD 272 Y-BLK 3.62 3.3 6.324 1.915
FORD 292 Y-BLK 3.75 3.3 6.324 1.915
FORD 312 Y-BLK 3.8 3.44 6.324 1.816
FORD 4.6L 3.552 3.543 5.933 1.674
FORD 5.4L 3.552 4.165 6.657 1.598
FORD 221 3.5 2.87 5.155 1.796
FORD 260 3.8 2.87 5.155 1.796
FORD 289 4.005 2.87 5.155 1.796
FORD 302/5.0L 4.002 3 5.09 1.696
FORD 302 BOSS 4 3 5.15 1.716
FORD 351W 4 3.5 5.956 1.701
FORD 351C 4 3.5 5.786 1.653
FORD 400 4 4 6.58 1.645
FORD 352 FE 3.875 3.5 6.54 1.868
FORD 390 FE 4.05 3.78 6.489 1.716
FORD 406 FE 4.13 3.78 6.489 1.716
FORD 427 FE 4.23 3.78 6.489 1.716
FORD 428 FE 4.13 3.98 6.489 1.63
FORD 429 4.362 3.59 6.605 1.839
FORD 460 4.362 3.85 6.605 1.715
FORD 430 MEL 4.3 3.7 6.6 1.783
FORD 6.8L V10 3.552 4.165 6.657 1.598

OLDS 215 3.5 2.8 5.66 2.021
OLDS 303 3.75 3.437 6.625 1.927
OLDS 324 3.875 3.437 6.625 1.927
OLDS 371 4 3.687 7 1.898
OLDS 394 4.125 3.687 7 1.898
OLDS 403 4.351 3.385 6 1.772
OLDS 425 4.125 3.975 6.998 1.76
OLDS 455 4.126 4.25 6.735 1.584

PACKARD 352 4 3.5 6.718 1.919

PONTIAC 326 3.718 3.75 6.625 1.766
PONTIAC 350 3.875 3.75 6.625 1.766
PONTIAC 389 4.062 3.75 6.625 1.766
PONTIAC 400 4.12 3.75 6.625 1.766
PONTIAC 421 4.093 4 6.625 1.656
PONTIAC 428 4.12 4 6.625 1.656
PONTIAC 455 4.15 4.21 6.625 1.573

STUDEBAKER 259 3.565 3.25 6.625 2.038
STUDEBAKER 289 3.565 3.625 6.625 1.827
STYDEBAKER 352 4 3.5 6.718 1.919
 
John,

Thanks for the info on this subject. I have always tried to choose a rod length that would have the desired effect on piston speed for which max rpm the engine will see. This on center stage motor that I am collecting pieces to build will be a low rpm motor compared to others out there. This engine will not see over 6200 to 6500 rpms. (production style heads). That's why I was looking to go with a rod that was shorter than most rods that are currently available. I am looking to speed the piston up while its at top dead center in attempt to reduce the chances of detonation. I would prefer to use a rod that was 6.300 but price wise and availablity of standard length bbc rods has me leaning heavily towards the 6.135 length.

With what I plan to use; bbc 6.135 length rod and the 3.59 stroke gives a rod ratio of 1.709. A 6.300 length rod nets a rod ratio of 1.7548 which is fairly close to the factory ratio of 1.7558 for a 3.8 or 4.1.

What do you think? Am I overlooking anything that might become a potential problem because of my use of a shorter rod?

David
 
Sorry Big Stu

sorry for hijacking your thread ... I should have started a new one.

David
 
Re: Sorry Big Stu

Originally posted by straycat990
sorry for hijacking your thread ... I should have started a new one.

David

:D David i am the most easy going guy you might ever meet, I would rather have someone get the help they need.:)

John, thanks for the info bud. My 153 block is clearanced for the length. The new carrillo's I have are 6.5 inch. I was just curious, I have been seeing new,unused billet oliver's for $600 on racing junk.com. I would hate to spend the money and then find out that they wouldn't work.:o :eek: I see more an more high hp stage builds, and the guys are using oliver rods. I am sure the carrillo's will take some abuse though.:cool:
 
???

What rod would you use if you were building a 4.1 off center with an Eagle crank??6" or 6.5"?

Looking at Oliver rods because they still make them new and I can actually find a set....
 
Carrillo still makes rods for these motors as far as I know. Maybe one of the "gurus" can answer your question.:)
 
Isn't side loading more of an issue with a shorter rod?
 
Stu,

In regard to rods for your engine I would tell you that a rod length between 6.200" and 6.500" will work fine. Since your motor is On center you'll need an On center rod for either a narrow journal (.840" rod width) or wide journal (.890" rod width) depending on your crank.

In regard to rod to stroke ratio the conventional wisdom is that a rod to stroke ratio of 1.7 to 1 or greater is good. Longer rods don't make more H.P. although a longer rod will yield a better rod to stroke ratio. Most race engine builders favor a longer rod for high RPM operation. This is why almost every Busch GN engine had 6.500" rods in it. A few even had 6.650" rods.

Rod to stroke ratio probably isn't that important if the RPM range of a given engine doesn't exceed 6500-7000 RPM. Keep in mind those are just shift points not continuous usage ie: circle track racing. Just to put things in perspective LS1 guys are using 4.00" stroke cranks with 6.200" rods yielding a pathetic 1.55 to 1 rod to stroke ratio and they seem to work just fine. :)

FWIW, clearancing the bottom of the cylinders on a block is because of the increased stroke length. The rod bolt tends to interfere with the bottom of the bore. Running a shorter rod with a long stroke crank doesn't change this.

Neal
 
Thanks neal, Kenny put together the parts i have for this build as a whole, so I was pretty confident. Would be nice if I had an extra set, money permitting obviously. The crank is a motorsports 3.59.:)
 
Re: ???

Originally posted by broke1
What rod would you use if you were building a 4.1 off center with an Eagle crank??6" or 6.5"?

Looking at Oliver rods because they still make them new and I can actually find a set....

Drew,

Using a 6.500 rod with a eagle crank will give you a rod ratio of 1.911. That's a bit high for my liking, but if you are building a rpm monster, then it should be okay. How high up in the rpm range are you planning to turn this engine? The one thing about running long rods is that they increase the time the piston dwells at TDC. Long rods in low rpm engines will lead to pontential detonation problems at high cylinder pressures (boost). Personally I like to obtain a ratio from 1.75 to 1.85 that seems to be a ratio range that works well in turbo or nitrous applications.

One thing else about using short rods... If you go too short you will have a side loaded problem where the load on the piston skirts will cause undo wear. The only advantage to using short rods is that they do increase torque output in the lower rpms.

As for what rod to use with your eagle crank. I would stay near to what buick used in a stock engine. There is a reason why pistons in 100k + mile 3.8s look near perfect. Buick did their home work on what rod ratio to use.

Hope this helps
 
Re: ???

Originally posted by broke1
What rod would you use if you were building a 4.1 off center with an Eagle crank??6" or 6.5"?

Looking at Oliver rods because they still make them new and I can actually find a set....


Drew ,
Im building a copy of what you are describing. Im using Oliver 6.5s due to availability and they are easier on the bore which is something to consider with a offcenter.
 
Re:Not 6.5"

Originally posted by straycat990
Drew,

Using a 6.500 rod with a eagle crank will give you a rod ratio of 1.911. That's a bit high for my liking, but if you are building a rpm monster, then it should be okay. How high up in the rpm range are you planning to turn this engine? The one thing about running long rods is that they increase the time the piston dwells at TDC. Long rods in low rpm engines will lead to pontential detonation problems at high cylinder pressures (boost). ..................

A few years ago, after checking with a couple Buick engine builders around the country, we were told a very good reason for NOT using a 6.5" rod in a turbo engine is the the pin ends up too high in the piston.

This means a weaker boss for the pin and smaller ring lands. This is not an issue on N/A stage motors as they do not use a dished piston, a reason lots of 6.5" rods are available from N/A camps.

We carry Crower billet rods in 6.3" and stock length.
 
Re: Re:Not 6.5"

Originally posted by Nick Micale
A few years ago, after checking with a couple Buick engine builders around the country, we were told a very good reason for NOT using a 6.5" rod in a turbo engine is the the pin ends up too high in the piston.

With a higher pin location ...would it also allow the piston to rock in the bore more easily?

Originally posted by Nick Micale
We carry Crower billet rods in 6.3" and stock length.

Nick, what kind of price range are the 6.300 on center rods and off center rods?
 
Re: Re:Not 6.5"

Originally posted by Nick Micale
A few years ago, after checking with a couple Buick engine builders around the country, we were told a very good reason for NOT using a 6.5" rod in a turbo engine is the the pin ends up too high in the piston.

This means a weaker boss for the pin and smaller ring lands. This is not an issue on N/A stage motors as they do not use a dished piston, a reason lots of 6.5" rods are available from N/A camps.

We carry Crower billet rods in 6.3" and stock length.

Cool, thanks nick. We'll just have to wait and see if the rods hold up when kenny is done with my motor.:)
 
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