P A C

[Razor]

Progressive Alcohol Controller..making a small anouncement..

Beta testing the controller.

Heres an update on what and how..

Runs of the GN two bar factory MAP sensor, delivers 100 percent power output to the pump, and will eliminate the following symptoms

surging, black smoke, knock retard when boost is flashed..like when spinning tires in water. no more hobbs switches.

Here is some data..Been in my car now two weeks..so far so good. The following values are real life in the car.. not on a bench or.. was fun getting the data..

Alky pump pressure in PSI....boost
0...........................................0
12.5......................................3
25.........................................5
37.5......................................8
50.........................................10
62.5......................................12
75.........................................13.5
90.........................................15

This is using the SMC kit..that little pump rocks..probably get 100 PSI. with 14.volts on the pump. The 90 psi was with 12.26v ..need one of them volt boosters

Will work on any pump..actually was testing using a big tire inflator motor..so 25 amps are no problem.

Couple more weeks before ready for sale..other items is to make a display that runs of a pressure sender..whereas you see a an LED bargraph that corresponds to pump PSI.

And the I dont want Ninja death speed out of the controller.. I personally like 100 psi..but others dont..that is being addressed at this time.

thought I drop my Buick bretheren a note

Cheers

Julio

 

[turbo buicks]

cool Julio. how much will these PACs be costin'? and whats Ninja death speed?

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Cool! Finally someone is taking a step in the right direction! Instead of going 2 stage, just drop a PAC in..

One issue with alchy is flooding. This happens because we are trying to put enough alchy in to controll temps in thirg gear. Problem is too much enters the system too early. Once the flooding starts, (like detonation) it feeds on itself and gets worse and worse.

By 'matching' the boost to pump pressure, the alchy comes on light during the initial stages, then heavier after the cylinder temps get up to where you want and need them.

This is a great development, and should make tuning much easier..

 

[JayC]

Nice idea.. but as a suggestion, build a 3 bar model. Depending on the sort of timing you're running, 100% that early may not be necessary.

Great idea, though.

 

[Razor]

Thanks JayC, I was initially going to do the mapping using the 3 bar..only concerns were the SMC kit doesnt deliver enough alky as is. for me its the same circuit with some minor changes to get that calibration..but dont know who runs up to 30 PSI

Its in the works..actually ,my car comes with a 3 bar factory..so the hardware is there..just my feeling was the need was more immediate for the GN platform kit.

As far as turnon..thats the current problem..if you set a pressure switch to low..then the car bogs(black smokes) when it initially hits that point. the cure is to set the turnon higher like lets say 12lbs. Problem now changes to if your car smokes the tires and the RPM's shoot up..so does the boost(spikes)..you'll see knock retard until the alky catches up.Those that loss traction in the rain,or on the street with street tires..will know what I mean. My bandaid was to reach over and hit the pump switch as I nailed the throttle..this is not the solution.

So this is where the development is at.Only drawback i'm seeing now is that minute amounts of alky get injested at low boost levels whereas 3 lbs = 12.5 psi pump..thats only 3.2 volts applied to the alky pump spinning it slow.

Dont think the turn-on should be brought up..unless its a race only application for metering using the 3 bar.If its brought up too high..then you have the problem condition described previously in the "blow the tires" scenario..

I have lots of street testing and track testing before I feel its 100 percent ready..soon it will be

Getting the measurements yesterday..not one time did my car surge,buck, black smoke..etc..which was pretty cool and it injested a lot of alcohol.

More to come..Ohh yea..Ninja Death..thats bad azzzz..the ultimate..maximum..supremo..etc..

I wonder if selenoids to propane/nitrous could be modulated as well..thats another thing.

Price..dunno yet..wont be too bad. I'm trying to keep the cost as inexpensive as possible.. anything can be over engineered..and may make a couple different versions of the same to help in cost issues.

 

[Razor]

Variable pump speed mod is up and running..So its progressive and output is variable.

Engine protect circuit coming soon..Pixs soon

 

[AsphaltAnihil8r]

Can you put one of those restictors in there(pressure line) to change the values higher ,,,seems early for the pump to be a full psi??

 

[Razor]

On my car running 25 PSI its not a problem..considering before my turnon point was 7-8 lbs..so 15 is double what it was

The pump speed controller does two things, one is it raises the turnon point and at the same time lowers total voltage output..so not as much alky is consumed.

I'm probably going to offer three different versions..Good to Best

Good--simple variable speed controller works with a Hobbs pressure switch and can regulate pump speed from inside the car. No more changing jets to figure what works best with the DIY kits.

Better-- is the 2 bar MAP based variable speed controller with an intensity display. Intensity works off of the pump voltage output.

Best -- 2 bar Map based variable speed controller with a pressure display. Pressure works off an sending unit..more pressure more LED's lite up.

3 bar mapping coming soon..as well as the safety circuit..in case of "the no alky at high boost" syndrome.

works with the factory OEM GN 2 bar sensor.

Any other ideas..i'm all ears..lets take alky into the 21 century.

 

[JayC]

You could answer the private message I sent you about a week ago

 

[Razor]

JayC..you have mail

Pm that is

 

[V6POWER]

Those of us running Turbolink with boost sensing harness use a 3 bar MAP. FYI.

 

[Razor]

Ok..ok..everybody nudging for the 3 bar..

I want to do the 3 bar a little different..I'll see if I can pull it off..but was going to make it like a 10 band graphic EQ..where you can map individual spots from 0-30 psi in 3 lb increments by increasing/decreasing those individual pressure points and vary pump speed at different PSI levels..Becuase some cars will never see 30 PSI and see way beyond the 15 PSI mark. So at 18 you may need more than at 21 and at 24 may need same as 21 and so on.. .beyond something that is "progressive"..this is going to take some work ..will be pricey.. but will happen before years end..

One neat thing I noticed on my kit last Thursday nite runnin the car, is that getting alky into the motor earlier made it lazier and launch better with the DR's..for the last couple months I could never get the DR's to "hook" and was doing 2.0 60 foots cuase the boost would jump and blow the tires..Not a problem on slicks ..giving the motor a little alky while boosting it..3- 1.8 60 foots out of 4 runs.. I probably can get it back down to the 1.6 range again..Only had 4 runs and was afraid with every launch I was going to blow away the tires...I'll progress report some more.

My next track day is May 4th..will have the direct scan on and recording..I was out of time this Thursday.

open for input

 

[AsphaltAnihil8r]

Originally posted by Razor
Ok..ok..everybody nudging for the 3 bar..

I want to do the 3 bar a little different..I'll see if I can pull it off..but was going to make it like a 10 band graphic EQ..where you can map individual spots from 0-30 psi in 3 lb increments by increasing/decreasing those individual pressure points and vary pump speed at different PSI levels..Becuase some cars will never see 30 PSI and see way beyond the 15 PSI mark. So at 18 you may need more than at 21 and at 24 may need same as 21 and so on.. .beyond something that is "progressive"..this is going to take some work ..will be pricey.. but will happen before years end..

One neat thing I noticed on my kit last Thursday nite runnin the car, is that getting alky into the motor earlier made it lazier and launch better with the DR's..for the last couple months I could never get the DR's to "hook" and was doing 2.0 60 foots cuase the boost would jump and blow the tires..Not a problem on slicks ..giving the motor a little alky while boosting it..3- 1.8 60 foots out of 4 runs.. I probably can get it back down to the 1.6 range again..Only had 4 runs and was afraid with every launch I was going to blow away the tires...I'll progress report some more.

My next track day is May 4th..will have the direct scan on and recording..I was out of time this Thursday.

open for input

Sounds like you are doing something like my boost gauge which is 20 leds ,each led is coming on at 1.5 psi for a total of 30psi,,I can get you intouch with a person VERY good with electronics ,he designed my boost gauge,,pretty cool

 

[Razor]

Your getting the picture.. .. listen i'm all ears to your friend. I've been working with electronics for exactly 20 years now doing equipment service..camcorders, lcd projectors, video equipment, etc..less alone all the other tinkering that I do. Yes I have a degree in this field ..wont get me a cup of coffee..but I do well

I dunno bout making 20 incremental steps. Resolution at that level is not the problem. I was more thinking out loud that most all of our cars respond differently to fueling..Alky being a fuel would be nice to trim it. Like music..needs more mids..needs more highs..etc..to get the maximum out of it.

And this kind of control wont be needed on a 12-13 second daily driver. Its more suited for us that are on the edge and need that little more control. Rather than dropping fuel into the motor as currently being done.

Your LED boost guage is the general idea..whereas every LED controls a certain amount of alcohol, and those amounts can be "trimmed".. I have the circuit that does your led drive, and have the circuit that drives the pump variably. Just need to tie those together. And Beta test it

Next couple weeks I'll be working on packaging, cosmetics, PCB's,clips, etc..I wish I could devote 60 hours a week into this R&D.

I'll see if I can get some pixs up by next weekend..

Anymore idears

 

[AsphaltAnihil8r]

Originally posted by Razor
Your getting the picture.. .. listen i'm all ears to your friend. I've been working with electronics for exactly 20 years now doing equipment service..camcorders, lcd projectors, video equipment, etc..less alone all the other tinkering that I do. Yes I have a degree in this field ..wont get me a cup of coffee..but I do well

I dunno bout making 20 incremental steps. Resolution at that level is not the problem. I was more thinking out loud that most all of our cars respond differently to fueling..Alky being a fuel would be nice to trim it. Like music..needs more mids..needs more highs..etc..to get the maximum out of it.

And this kind of control wont be needed on a 12-13 second daily driver. Its more suited for us that are on the edge and need that little more control. Rather than dropping fuel into the motor as currently being done.

Your LED boost guage is the general idea..whereas every LED controls a certain amount of alcohol, and those amounts can be "trimmed".. I have the circuit that does your led drive, and have the circuit that drives the pump variably. Just need to tie those together. And Beta test it

Next couple weeks I'll be working on packaging, cosmetics, PCB's,clips, etc..I wish I could devote 60 hours a week into this R&D.

I'll see if I can get some pixs up by next weekend..

Anymore idears

Sounds like you know what your doing ,,keep, us posted ,sounds cool

 

[blackbuick87]

So would this device be adjustable or preset?

I too think this is too soon for the alky to be on fully. My turn on point right now is 15psi. I would like to have it start to flow at maybe 8#, and be on fully by about 18# in my particular case

 

[Razor]

blackbuick87 ,
15PSI turnon point is extremely high. I tried that setting on my car when I first got my kit and it was miserable detonation wise. If I punched the gas pedal down..I would look at my retard flash 5-10 degrees then start coming down...7-8 seems to be where most find a happy medium..Even then if I smoked the tires while launching,15-20 degrees.. Cars with small turbos,gears,small converters, heads,cam, that spool fast..7-8 is too high for turn on..more like 3-4..then you have the problem of bog when you barely hit that PSI while running around. The fix is set to 7-8 and reach for the red button when you mash the throttle.

Also the difference between 15 and 18 PSI is marginal. Any kind of control above 15 PSI will require a 3 bar MAP.

If you have an SMC kit and run enough boost where pump speed 10 is used..if its at 15psi or 20psi doesnt make too much of a difference.

With a 3 bar sensor you can microtune every boost increment. Anything can be made.The sky is the limit on these products. But the more control that is added..the more circuit that will be required..If I make a total system that would sell for 750 dollars I would not sell many,if any and get into the aquamist controller scenario. And this kind of tuning is not needed on a 12 second car...unless ya like gadgets and gizmos.. Microtuning will be beneficial for those cars in the mid to faster 11 second range. the SMC kit will get ya into the 11's. Or close enough to smell the timeslip.

When you start running pump speed 10..then youll see the beauty of this setup.

Small amounts of alky at low boost levels have zero effect on performance...I can hold my car at any boost level and has zero problems maintaining the number...kinda like propane

 

[WFO]

interesting points...

i have found that i can run 12 psi without detonation on my maxeffort's 24º settings,so i have my alky kick on just before that to eliminate transitional knock.

but as you point out,i'm nowhere near "10" on pump speed,more like 5 or 6...

if you could make the 3 bar system kick on about 12 psi and run progressively up to about 24 psi(what i'm running on 92 octane/alky/24º)that would be friggin sweet..

or i guess i could kick the timing up to 26 or 28 degrees with the trans+ so i need more alky earlier on.

it seems like it would be a good idea to go with two small nozzles to help with atomization at lower pressures,while still allowing enough flow at full tilt.

either way,count me in.

later,sean

 

[Razor]

WFO, try running a little more alky and less fuel..report back. If the car is rich fuel wise, it will have decreased top end charge.Get ypur O2's to read 790-800's 2nd and 3rd gear..top of third they should go down to 760-770's..get it to run like this without detonation..bada bing..you'll trap 112. If you notice knock..drop the timing some more. I have found on the cars I've helped tune, they like 18-20 degrees..becuase at low timing you wont detonate as easily as higher timing..which is a problem when you start leaning it out.

You can make any car run 26 degrees and lots of boost by keeping the mixture pig rich. but you wont be any faster. Only thing youll get is a bunch of retard when you try and lean it out.

Pull some timing out down to 20-22 as well and lean it out by dropping FP and increase your pump speed..let me know the results..at the track your MPH will increase.

guaranteed



Only problem is you'll consume more alky.

Julio

 

[blackbuick87]

Razor I find that my results are totally different than yours. I have a small, stock turbo, higher than stock compression ratio, and .040 over pistons and have no problems with a 15psi turn on point. With a 22* chip I always have less than 3* of "flash" KR, and have never used a turn on point of less than 13psi.

That is why I was asking about the adjustability of the setup, because every car is different, and what your car seems to like would be WAY too early for me.