power plate Question
- Thread starter pwhite
- Start date
Intercooler
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Did your boost level drop any and did you adjust it to compensate? Could be what you were missing plus some.
The plate was put on,boost and fp adjusted for good o2's and no knock.Simple as that.It just slowed the car down at the end of the quarter for me.I tried everychip I had that day and nothing helped.the plate is supposed to help with air distribution no matter what chip you have or boost level.When I put the plate on and pulled it out on the track with no other adjustements ,after I launched the boost was extremely high that I had to back out and drop the boost,after adjusting the boost and fp the best I could do was still 2-3 tenths slower that my average for the day before.Nothing changed but the plate.I thought the plate was supposed to compliment what you already have going not change the car to make the plate work?
Well I just bought a henco because I see no reason behind the plate, you put on a 65mm throttle body ported upper, and then put on a restrictor uhmm...power plate that has small holes in it to restrict the air. Yea you said turn up the boost to make up the difference the restrictor plate causes, but then in turn you also turn up the heat because there is more pressure on the front side of the throotle body and in the intercooler. The plate may work ok for a stock turbo,stock throttle body,stock GN, but if you modifiy yours lust a little I think it becomes a restrictor plate instead of a power plate. Yes I know jason uses one on his car, Heck I would to if I was making money off of them. I was going to make me one out of alumium(sp) at the machine shop like the power plate because we have the equipment to make them on a cnc machine, but I see no reason or benefit to having one so I will not make one.
If I am wrong then I am very sorry, but I do have doughts
If I am wrong then I am very sorry, but I do have doughts
Okay, here's my thoughts. I haven't had nearly enough track or dyno time (or money) to test the PP as I would like. I would like to convey my thoughts regarding the physics of it. First of all, I think the plate does cause a "restriction" in the air passage. I think this is why people who just bolt it on and race are not going to appreciate it. It would possibly cause a slight boost increase but moreso a flow decrease because our wastegates will compensate for the boost increase caused by the restriction. Think of a (perfect) propane or natural gas regulator for example, there is a certain amount of pressure in the line after the regulator whether gas is running into a furnace and being used or if the furnace is not running (i.e. no gas flow). The wastegate will control (for the most part) the boost level. I think some of the misconceptions are because we generally measure the boost pressure before the plate. I think Power Plate equipped engines, because of the restriction, have a lower boost pressure after the plate, but it is not discussed because as I stated, we don't generally measure the pressure after the plate (in the intake mainfold).
One of the advantages of using a turbocharger is the very low power consumption it has to operate. I read somewhere that turbos may use about 5% of the additional power they help create to compress the air. Therefore, in my opinion if you crank up the boost a little to compensate for the "restriction" you can be back at the flow levels you were at before with little consequences since a turbo is so efficient at making boost. The trick is not to think of it as running 20 psi when you have always had a good tune at 18 psi. It's not that you are increasing the boost so much as you are compensating for the "restriction".
What we have to weigh out and test is whether or not we can actually flow more air and make more power with less detonation as an end result because of the supposed equalization of the distribution of air. Or if maybe the turbo has to work too much harder to flow the same to generate positive results.
I wish I had a bunch of money I could spend testing my theory, but it will probably remain just that.
I hope you could follow all that, and I really hope I am thinking on the right track after writing all that.
One of the advantages of using a turbocharger is the very low power consumption it has to operate. I read somewhere that turbos may use about 5% of the additional power they help create to compress the air. Therefore, in my opinion if you crank up the boost a little to compensate for the "restriction" you can be back at the flow levels you were at before with little consequences since a turbo is so efficient at making boost. The trick is not to think of it as running 20 psi when you have always had a good tune at 18 psi. It's not that you are increasing the boost so much as you are compensating for the "restriction".
What we have to weigh out and test is whether or not we can actually flow more air and make more power with less detonation as an end result because of the supposed equalization of the distribution of air. Or if maybe the turbo has to work too much harder to flow the same to generate positive results.
I wish I had a bunch of money I could spend testing my theory, but it will probably remain just that.
I hope you could follow all that, and I really hope I am thinking on the right track after writing all that.
blackbuick87
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
The point of the plate is to equalize airflow to all cylinders, fixing Buicks poor air distribution design
If you want to run #5 and #6 leaner, more power to you. As far I am concerned it was $50 well spent
Anyone have before and after results from a Hemco? How about a plenum spacer? I would place the Power Plate ahead of both of those.
If you want to run #5 and #6 leaner, more power to you. As far I am concerned it was $50 well spent
Anyone have before and after results from a Hemco? How about a plenum spacer? I would place the Power Plate ahead of both of those.
I had a hemco, didn't like it when compared to the power plate.I did run 2 more pound of boost with the hemco over the stock plenum. I now run 4 lb more with the plate compared to the stock plenum.I run a pt-51 ,v-2 front mount, 50's, bone stock 30,000 mile motor and high 6's in the 1/8 th.I guess it just works for me
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
We have one on my friends car that we put on while we were at bowling green.
I ran consistant 11.70@117 with 1.8 60' times with the car all day. We put the plate on and still ran 11.70@117 but with a 2.1 60'. The car was spinning coming out of the hole easier so either the track was going away or the car was making a little more power and just breaking the nittos loose (I think the track was going away).
Did it make a difference? I think so. My ET should have dropped considerably loosing .3 off the 60'.
On the street with 91 octane we can run 15-16# of boost on that car with no knock. My car will only run 13#. Even with the stock 86 turbo back on it only runs 13# before knock. I am going to get one of the plates to try. If it doesnt work, its not alot of money and it will be sold.
I ran consistant 11.70@117 with 1.8 60' times with the car all day. We put the plate on and still ran 11.70@117 but with a 2.1 60'. The car was spinning coming out of the hole easier so either the track was going away or the car was making a little more power and just breaking the nittos loose (I think the track was going away).
Did it make a difference? I think so. My ET should have dropped considerably loosing .3 off the 60'.
On the street with 91 octane we can run 15-16# of boost on that car with no knock. My car will only run 13#. Even with the stock 86 turbo back on it only runs 13# before knock. I am going to get one of the plates to try. If it doesnt work, its not alot of money and it will be sold.
I don't know if this makes any difference from the Power Plate but I did a 13.80 @112.5 with 20lbs of boost with a mixture of race/pump gas with 1/4 throttle to the 1/8 mile then WOT all the way. No knock was seen. But then I added the ported stock TB and Plemun from Jay Jackson at the same time.
Intercooler
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Don't anyone watch NASCAR? A restrictor plate has openings that are smaller than the inlet to slow the cars down. That isn't the case here. The total open area of all those weird shapes equals more open area than what can be flowed through the TB.... plain and simple. This makes it a "director" rather than "restrictor". I put one in my new engine with a 70mm TB because I believe the concept. Actually after hearing from people that were at BG where the they had a mock engine set up with a leaf blower I was told you could feel how much more even the air-flow was out each port compared to not having the plate. This was from people holding their hands under to gauge flow. I couldn't be there but I believe their accounts of what they witnessed. For $50.00 it is one of the cheaper mods I have seen for our cars and I would go this route in a heart-beat over a $200.00 Hemco. Now if the open areas in the plate were not greater than what could be flowed through the TB then it would be a restrictor. Jason researched this and designed it so this wouldn't be the case. My .002.
Personally I've seen enough positive results posted to believe that it helps, I haven't had much time to tune mine. I'm ready for the snow to melt.
As far as a "restriction" if you were to flow a liquid through the intake system than you could think of the passages as two dimensional (for the most part), but because we are dealing with a gas, we have to think more three dimensionally. As we all know, gas has the ability to compress and expand (good thing, or turbos would be worthless), I think the air goes through the TB and then expands a bit in the plenum, then it is forced through another passage (Power Plate) that is said to be slightly larger than the throttlebody, but is a bit of a bottle neck.
I do think the Power Plate's equal air distribution properties outweigh the "restriction" affect though, I just like debating the physics of it. So just bolt it on (or don't) and crank up the boost a touch and have fun.
If you don't use the Power Plate, crank up the boost anyways, just to see if anything breaks.
As far as a "restriction" if you were to flow a liquid through the intake system than you could think of the passages as two dimensional (for the most part), but because we are dealing with a gas, we have to think more three dimensionally. As we all know, gas has the ability to compress and expand (good thing, or turbos would be worthless), I think the air goes through the TB and then expands a bit in the plenum, then it is forced through another passage (Power Plate) that is said to be slightly larger than the throttlebody, but is a bit of a bottle neck.
I do think the Power Plate's equal air distribution properties outweigh the "restriction" affect though, I just like debating the physics of it. So just bolt it on (or don't) and crank up the boost a touch and have fun.
If you don't use the Power Plate, crank up the boost anyways, just to see if anything breaks.
TurboBuickSix
Active Member
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
My theory for what it's worth
FRICTION!! would heat the air after it was already cooled by the IC and create less oxygen molecules because the air is hotter/thinner thus making for a richer mixture and reducing some small amount of knock.Just another thought.
FRICTION!!
would heat the air after it was already cooled by the IC and create less oxygen molecules because the air is hotter/thinner thus making for a richer mixture and reducing some small amount of knock.Just another thought.Fact not theory.
I cant understand why a product that does exactly what it is advertised and has so many proven benefits gets beat up so bad with this guy or that guys theory.
There are no downsides to even air distribution. Some guys might try to persuade you different with this theory or that but facts are facts….
Restriction? Simply NO not in this case. Let me restate what has already been posted many times before.
1- there is no boost pressure increase or decrease after the plate install
2- The plate has over twice the open area of the stock throttle body. The total flow of a system is determined by the most restrictive piece in that system.
3- We have flow tested the plate by itself and it significantly out flows even the 70mm t.b.
4- We have actually measured the manifold pressure above and below the plate and there is no difference.
5- The plate has been tested in stock block cars into the 9 sec range
6- we have flow tested the the intake manifold with and without the plate installed. The manifold actually flows 3-5% more air WITH the power plate installed.
Increase power on the Dyno?
Absolutely. The plate has been independently dyno tested on three separate occasions. In every instance the addition of the plate netted an increase of 25ft/lbs of torque WITHOUT increasing the boost pressure. One of these dyno test was performed by John Gallina in his record holding NHRA Buicks. Being able to increase the boost pressure due to reduced knock can easily double this gain.
Reduction of knock?
Yes, this has been proven in nearly every instance. Every car is different. Some are able to increase their boost pressure 2 lbs. and some as much as 4 lbs. !!!
Reduction of ET?
Yes this has been tested independently from us dozens times. In every test the addition of the plate picked the car up 1-3 tenths. The GS club of America tested it at the 2002 GS Nats. On their 87 turbo Buick test vehicle. They picked a solid 2 tenths and 2mph. All of these tests were in a very strictly controlled environment with witnesses ensuring consistency and accurate results.
One of the benifits that has not been brought to light is the reduction of head gasket failure that every single power plate owner takes advantage of.
There have been a few guys that have had a negative result after the plate install.. In every instance it was because they disturbed something or created a problem during the install that was totally unrelated to the plate. Also in every case they resolved that problem and were happy with the results
The TSM class at this years GSNats was the biggest most competitive heads up class. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the class it is a no holes barred stock block class. There were 15 cars that qualified and entered most of which were running well into the mid tens. Of these the #1 and #2 qualifier were running plates. There was a 3 tenths gap between the #2 and #3 qualifier. Several of the cars that were not running power plates had head gasket problems. None of the guys that had plates on did. Just a little food for thought.
When we originally conceived this part we contemplated not bringing this to the turbo Buick enthusiast. After all we like to race in the very competitive heads up classes and need every advantage we can get.
We thought, maybe we should keep this our little secret so that we have a big advantage (like so many of the serious turbo Buick street racers do now with our plate)…. Well this is not what most of us turbo Buick enthusiasts are like. We help each other. We find something that works we share it. Word of mouth has sold more of these plates than anything has. One guy tries it and he just can’t wait to tell his friends about it. This attitude is why our hobby of turbo Buicks is still alive. No other brand make or model seems to have this. The people are one of the reasons why I love these cars so much.
RJC Racing is not some big corporation that sells gimmicks just to get rich off of the Buick enthusiasts. We make parts because we share the passion of owning and modifying turbo Buicks. If you have not noticed we don’t just sell any part that we can turn a profit off of. We only sell parts that the Buick enthusiast needs and cant get anywhere else. We would not sell the Power Plate if we were not absolutely sure that it does exactly what we say it does. If we were into just selling parts or gimmicks to make quick cash we surely would not chose a 16 year old limited production car as our mainstay… we would be selling Honda parts.
I cant understand why a product that does exactly what it is advertised and has so many proven benefits gets beat up so bad with this guy or that guys theory.
There are no downsides to even air distribution. Some guys might try to persuade you different with this theory or that but facts are facts….
Restriction? Simply NO not in this case. Let me restate what has already been posted many times before.
1- there is no boost pressure increase or decrease after the plate install
2- The plate has over twice the open area of the stock throttle body. The total flow of a system is determined by the most restrictive piece in that system.
3- We have flow tested the plate by itself and it significantly out flows even the 70mm t.b.
4- We have actually measured the manifold pressure above and below the plate and there is no difference.
5- The plate has been tested in stock block cars into the 9 sec range
6- we have flow tested the the intake manifold with and without the plate installed. The manifold actually flows 3-5% more air WITH the power plate installed.
Increase power on the Dyno?
Absolutely. The plate has been independently dyno tested on three separate occasions. In every instance the addition of the plate netted an increase of 25ft/lbs of torque WITHOUT increasing the boost pressure. One of these dyno test was performed by John Gallina in his record holding NHRA Buicks. Being able to increase the boost pressure due to reduced knock can easily double this gain.
Reduction of knock?
Yes, this has been proven in nearly every instance. Every car is different. Some are able to increase their boost pressure 2 lbs. and some as much as 4 lbs. !!!
Reduction of ET?
Yes this has been tested independently from us dozens times. In every test the addition of the plate picked the car up 1-3 tenths. The GS club of America tested it at the 2002 GS Nats. On their 87 turbo Buick test vehicle. They picked a solid 2 tenths and 2mph. All of these tests were in a very strictly controlled environment with witnesses ensuring consistency and accurate results.
One of the benifits that has not been brought to light is the reduction of head gasket failure that every single power plate owner takes advantage of.
There have been a few guys that have had a negative result after the plate install.. In every instance it was because they disturbed something or created a problem during the install that was totally unrelated to the plate. Also in every case they resolved that problem and were happy with the results
The TSM class at this years GSNats was the biggest most competitive heads up class. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the class it is a no holes barred stock block class. There were 15 cars that qualified and entered most of which were running well into the mid tens. Of these the #1 and #2 qualifier were running plates. There was a 3 tenths gap between the #2 and #3 qualifier. Several of the cars that were not running power plates had head gasket problems. None of the guys that had plates on did. Just a little food for thought.
When we originally conceived this part we contemplated not bringing this to the turbo Buick enthusiast. After all we like to race in the very competitive heads up classes and need every advantage we can get.
We thought, maybe we should keep this our little secret so that we have a big advantage (like so many of the serious turbo Buick street racers do now with our plate)…. Well this is not what most of us turbo Buick enthusiasts are like. We help each other. We find something that works we share it. Word of mouth has sold more of these plates than anything has. One guy tries it and he just can’t wait to tell his friends about it. This attitude is why our hobby of turbo Buicks is still alive. No other brand make or model seems to have this. The people are one of the reasons why I love these cars so much.
RJC Racing is not some big corporation that sells gimmicks just to get rich off of the Buick enthusiasts. We make parts because we share the passion of owning and modifying turbo Buicks. If you have not noticed we don’t just sell any part that we can turn a profit off of. We only sell parts that the Buick enthusiast needs and cant get anywhere else. We would not sell the Power Plate if we were not absolutely sure that it does exactly what we say it does. If we were into just selling parts or gimmicks to make quick cash we surely would not chose a 16 year old limited production car as our mainstay… we would be selling Honda parts.
The Radius Kid
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
Uh,yeah.
Russ Merritt
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2002
I also measured the boost under the plate. Drilled and tapped the manifold below the plate and there is NO DIFFERANCE!!!! I tapped below the throttlebody to get as far forward as possible. (where there is supposedly not enough boost) Boost came in just as fast as above the plate. (At the throttlebody) I also had the whole manifold on the bench and blew air through the throttlebody and it feels even on all runners with the plate.
