Pros and cons of single VS twins

[HighPSI]

Originally posted by 86brick
Jesse, you might want to speak with KendallF cause he is in the process of building a twin turbo Stage II TR which he plans on street driving and he had mentioned a twin turbo Stage II GN that he saw at Reynolds that was running 8.50's with very small 38mm turbos (basically stock hotair turbos) and if my memory serves me correct this car weighs 3400+lbs and is street driven

That car belongs to Dave Wix. He is a super nice guy. I doubt that that car has been on the street for several years. It is a 215 ci, tubbed, lexan, etc.. car. I would be REALLY suprised if the car weighed much over 3000#. It is a very well engineered car that runs in the an NHRA class like Lou Czarnota and John Gallina.

BTW: If anyone knows Dave, have him give me a call.

 

[KendallF]

Originally posted by HighPSI
That car belongs to Dave Wix. He is a super nice guy. I doubt that that car has been on the street for several years. It is a 215 ci, tubbed, lexan, etc.. car. I would be REALLY suprised if the car weighed much over 3000#. It is a very well engineered car that runs in the an NHRA class like Lou Czarnota and John Gallina.

BTW: If anyone knows Dave, have him give me a call.

It's not a street car, but it's impressive as heck! Cal, I emailed you with Dave's email address...

BTW, Dave told me the car weighed something like 3400 (could've been with him in it).

 

[86brick]

Thanks for the correction(s) Cal! I think if you wanted to build a very fast street driven twin turbo Stage II TR your best bet would be to use a pair of TE-44s or some Turbonetics 60-1s cause they should be able to make around 1000hp and spool up pretty darn quick.... I know that Lou Czarnota had a twin turbo 350 SBC V8 in his '85 GN that ran 9.0 @150+mph (dynoed over 900hp to the rear wheels) and he was using a pair of Turbonetics Stage 5 60-1 ball bearing turbos.... The car had a stock suspension setup, TH400, Ford 9" rear, and was street driven and from what Turbo Mag said it was a scary ride on the BFG DRs!!! I wonder if somebody could do the same with a Stage II Buick V6 motor??

 

[STP]

I've got Dave's number Cal, if you want it....Scott

 

[OneQuikSix]

TT sbc 350

I would be very interested in learning more on Lou's setup. This is actually what I have always wanted to do for a number of reasons already mentioned. Perhaps someone could point me in the right direction

 

[86brick]

Your best bet would be to call and speak with Lou Czarnota

Chris, from what I heard Lou sold the car a while back, but I know some of the combo.... Chevy 350 standard block and crank with all the machine work (balanced, blueprinted, etc.), JE aluminum forged pistons, forged rods (not sure what brand), a Motec M48 engine management system, a pair of Turbonetics 60-1 Stage 5 ball bearing turbos, custom Spearco IC, custom headers, custom down pipes etc.... I'm really not sure about what cam, heads, intake, TB, injectors, fuel pumps, and other things that he used so you'd have to speak to Lou.... I do know the car ran 9.05 @152mph with 18lbs of boost and a best of a 1.35 60' time and I know for a fact it had a Mark Williams Ford 9" rear end, and I'm pretty sure it had a TH400 w/ a brake but I could be wrong.... If you plan on building a TT SBC I would suggest you do a LOT of research cause if you are thinking it will be cheaper than building a single or TT Buick Stage II V6 motor trust me when I say it is NOT!!!!! From what I have found it is about the same cost when you take into consideration you will want the best block which is the BowTie, or you could use an all aluminum Dart block or Motown block (all of them will cost just as much as a Stage II when all the machine work is done), the heads/intake/TB aren't really any cheaper, the cost of a good Billet solid roller cam is not any cheaper, a good Billet forged crank is NOT cheap either way, a good set of forged pistons is about $800 either way, forged rods will be about $1K either way, a good engine management system like a FAST/FelPro or Accel DFI Gen7 is about $2K-$3K either way, all the fuel system stuff like injectors and fuel pumps/lines isn't any cheaper and here is where it gets expensive when building a TT SBC.... good custom headers and downpipes (unless you are or know somebody who is good at custom fabrication of headers/downpipes), the intercooler will probably be more expensive or cost about the same and turbos will be the same price so where is it any cheaper??? I hope I've made my point cause I would hate to see another TR with a V8 in it cause even if it's a twin turbo motor it's no longer a Buick IMO
If you are serious however I would call and speak with Kenny Duttweiler of Duttweiler Performance or Chris Chow who has Bob Rieger's old Duttweiler built TT SBC V8 in his WE4 (the car is running mid 8's @ over 160mph with a stock suspension) and can be seen @ www.fasttrackperformance.com
HTH

 

[OneQuikSix]

Thanks for the input. I see your points about the cost issue. I kinda feel the same way about the change in Buick status by adding a V8. Either project whether it be a stage 2 or tt sbc, is in the pretty distant future. Thanks again for the helpful information.

 

[86brick]

No problem.

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you cause I plan on building a TA Performance aluminum V6 motor, but this project is also in the distant future for me cause I want to do everything right the first time (use all the best parts instead of going the cheap route).

Later, Steve

 

[n20junkie]

well i kinda have to disagree on the price of SBC vs stage II, if you lok at lou c's buildup you can see why, for one reason exotic light weight parts are not required because the engine need not rev above 6 grand, a stock 350 4 bolt is 100, plus machining is mabe 700, an eagle 4340 non-twist forged crank nitrated is 400 on ebay, 4340 rods and 220,000 psi bolts are another 300 on ebay, ppistons from JE are 600 new, non-gap rings are 150, sportsman heads are 1,000 new and roller cam and lifters are 300 from douge herbert performance, roller rockers are 150 from summit. add that all up, and take into consideration that most of these parts are resourced from private individuals but are NEW like many stage stuff, and you have a 3,200 dollar long block that will hold up to dam near anything, block being the ony weak part, and lou ran dam near 8's on stock crank, now the price of the other components will run about the same, that won't change, but fine me a short block stage engine with this many NEW parts for 3,200 dollars and i will buy that bad boy, but i still love the buick.
Grant J Farmer

 

[OneQuikSix]

Thanks for the reply Grant. I was pondering the same question regarding the quality/price relationship of the internals for the project. I too have found many of the parts to be substantially less expensive than stage parts. With the exception of the custom exhaust work, the rest it stuff I would basically need anyway regardless if I went the stage II route or by way of the SBC.

As far as the block goes, I probably would not be planning to make more than 800 hp anyway, so I could probably get away with using a good block that has been well prepped. I don't think I'd have to go to a bowtie or equivilent strength block.

My goal is to build a "tight" driving car that is comfortable to drive, minimal stall speed, crisp throttle response, exellent highway manners, and of course plenty of power. I am thinking that with two turbos approximately in the TE-44 range, I could easily accomplish this goal.

The reason I only drive my car once a month now is because I get real tired of the stall converter and turbo lag, big cam, etc... that is associated with carrying a full weight turbo regal into low E.T.s. I thought maybe there was a better way.

 

[86brick]

Well yes it would be cheaper if you stick with Lou's build up using a stock 350 block and crank.... Me personally I would rather build it with the best parts possible which means a Sonny Bryant Billet forged steel crank and a BowTie block because what happens if you want to make more than 800-1000hp??!

Chris, because you have interest in Lou's combo I dug up the issue of Turbo mag when it was featured (January 2000 issue on page 44).... Here is some more info on Lou's setup.... The fuel system was designed to support a 1200 horsepower application and starts with a 12-gallon JAZ fuel cell, Weldon fuel pump, Kinsler fuel pressue regulator via #10 braided hoses, and finally eight 83lb injectors via custom fuel rails.... The heads are CNC ported Air Flow Research (AFR) units with FelPro gaskets and the cam is a special turbo roller grind from Erson with Erson roller rockers.... The intercooler is a huge aluminum Spearco two-section custom intercooler and he had a 1000-cfm Accel throttle body.... The intake manifold is a Chevy Race Shop piece converted to fuel injection by Lou.... Ignition duties are handled by MSD components including a 7-AL crank trigger system, billet distributor and wires. Lou set the two step control for 5500-rpm and shifts at 7000 rpm. The rev limit is set at 7500 rpm.... And last but not least he had a GM Turbo 400 with stock ratios and a Coan Trans-brake and a 5000 stall 9" Pro-Mod unit from Continental Converter and he had a MW 9" Ford rear end with a 3.50:1 ratio Pro Gear with 35-spline axles.... If you are really interested in speaking with Lou about the car and the cost of the project his shop # is 949-770-5956
Hope you have all the info you ever wanted

 

[OneQuikSix]

steve,

thanks alot...that was awesome help