Question about my fuel capabilities

[BARRACUDA1968]

I had a mishap with my last engine build. Lifted the Champion head so I pulled the motor and decided to go TA Performance aluminum heads. Mild porting and everything else in my sig is the same.

I decided to tear the motor completely down to the bare block. I have an old friend who offered to help me with the job. I'm doing this only because I did compromise the head gasket but didn't milkshake the motor. I figured why not take a look since Doug offered his help. I would not attempt this myself. Here's what he just finished building. 3000 Horsies.



I dropped the motor off yesterday and Doug asked if I wanted to make any changes like cam etc. (He's recommending it) I said not if I don't need to. Now that I have the new heads I'm sure there's more power to be had but my goals are a dependable street car that will run in the high 10's with sticky tires. I also talked with Husek and he said a different cam may wake it up too. Doug's the type of engine builder that wants to maximize every inch of the motor and he's good at it but like I mentioned to him is if I go much further than I may need to upgrade my fuel system which I don't want to do if I don't have to. I'm 95% street car.

I have a Red's XP Plus pump and stock fuel lines now. I believe and could be wrong but this should serve my purpose at the power level I'll be at?

I'm told 18 PSI will be plenty of boost for my goals at the track so that's kind of my target. I want to keep the stock ECU and run a TT chip for now because I believe this will also get the job done. I'd go E85 but we don't have it real handy around here so I'll stay with the Alky.

So how far can I go with my current fuel set up?

 

[20psiofevil]

That is the way na and supercharger engine builders think. Did he perhaps say you need a v8 to make real power at some point?

How much lift is your current cam and what is the lobe separation? I don't have any recommendations just curious.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

No he's not against the 6 cylinder turbo thing at all he just knows the cam is the heart of the motor and matching it to the combo is where it's at. We even discussed a solid roller but I'd like to stay hydraulic roller. Since my impression over the last 1 1/2 on this board has been that cams are not the end all in these motors I thought if my cam would get the job done even though I may leave a few ponies on the table I may stay the course. Hense the reason for this thread, if I do go with a different cam and make more power I want to know where my next weak link will be. I was thinking fuel delivery?

My lift with 1.6's is 580 ish and I don't have the cam card here to recall the lobe separation. I believe it's 113 with the cam degreed in at 108

 

[Mr.Spool]

So how far can I go with my current fuel set up?

a single xp and alky with volts and what you have in your sig will easily go high 10's.i doubt you will do it on 18psi,but the fuel system wont be holding you back.

 

[Mr.Spool]

My lift with 1.6's is 580 ish and I don't have the cam card here to recall the lobe separation.

more than whats needed to run high 10's,so you are covered on the cam side.

 

[Mr.Spool]

if I do go with a different cam and make more power I want to know where my next weak link will be. I was thinking fuel delivery?

nope,the drivetrain will need your attention

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

I plan to take a good look from the tranny back. Right now my tranny is holding and it was built decent so until further notice I hope I'm good with that.

I need to look at my axles next and see what I have. The car had a lot of suspension mods done years back so maybe I'm ok there. I've heard about the C clip eliminator deal which I want to do if need be and I will probably install a girdle. Other than that I don't know what else to do? I have a drive shaft loop but not sure what other than stock I might have for U joints and drive shaft? I would think a 1.6 60ft should get me there and I'm not running a brake so launches shouldn't be too violent. I am heavy though, 3940# with me in the car and 3/4 tank of fuel.

Good to hear about the cam because I'm tired of throwing money at this thing and wrenching on it from the dead. I like to tinker and tune etc which is par for the course on any high performance car. I believe I have a strong set up that will do what I built it to do.

I do have a volt booster.

I don't know what boost it will take to get me in the 10's but I've been told 18 psi on this set up will be fast. If it takes more than so be it.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I've heard about the C clip eliminator deal which I want to do if need be and I will probably install a girdle.

don't forget the posi,and driveshaft.i also wouldn't limit yourself to a 1.6 60ft,the footbrake/ebrake with the right combo and tune can do much better than that and will really chop down the et.

 

[20psiofevil]

I just checked out the ta performance aluminum heads and stock for stock they flow right with the ford split port heads.

TA heads:
CFM (base) Int./Exh: 213 / 178 .500” Lift

Stock ford splitport heads:
Intake Stock RGR heads
0.100 61 67
0.200 115 129
0.300 165 178
0.400 196 205
0.500 210 216
0.600 218 222
0.650 219 223
Exhaust
0.100 44 44
0.200 85 104
0.300 104 124
0.400 119 141
0.500 125 148
0.600 127 150

On a bone stock unopened motor #3300 plus driver it took Justin Starkey from vmp tuning to run 10.99 @ 127mph with 17psi using twin 16g turbo's and racefuel timing. Just for comparison.

 

[Nick Micale]

I just checked out the ta performance aluminum heads and stock for stock they flow right with the ford split port heads.................

I do not understand what you have posted, but his TA heads have been worked, and the TA numbers you posted are for out-of-the box heads and they are way low?

As far as fuel supply, we learned years ago that a single pump is marginal into the 10's at the 500+ HP level.

There are some newer high-tech turbine-type pumps that could supply more fuel than a XP in a single pump set up.

As far as the existing cam it has been proven to easily go well into the 9's., or the 600 RWHP level. If you want more HP with that cam you could up the valve spring pressure a bit for more RPM, but not too much pressure if it is not a billet piece.

 

[fastblackracing]

I do not understand what you have posted, but his TA heads have been worked, and the TA numbers you posted are for out-of-the box heads and they are way low?

As far as fuel supply, we learned years ago that a single pump is marginal into the 10's at the 500+ HP level.

There are some newer high-tech turbine-type pumps that could supply more fuel than a XP in a single pump set up.

As far as the existing cam it has been proven to easily go well into the 9's., or the 600 RWHP level. If you want more HP with that cam you could up the valve spring pressure a bit for more RPM, but not too much pressure if it is not a billet piece.

As allready stated you have more turbo and cam than you need to meet your goal. I would expect your going to have to run 22# + of boost to make it happen if your really that heavy. A set of moser c-clip axles are good for low 1.5 short times, I wouldnt run the bigger c-clip eliminators unless you plan to run 1.4 short times. You really should upgrade the fuel pump, it will not feed 80# injectors at higher duty cycle% I know you are on alky but I would do it any way. The te 45 a turbo can move quite a bit of air and when matched to the right converter is pretty lively on the street. Just make sure your friend keeps the bearing clearances tight so that this does not turn into a low oil pressure thread, .001 to .002 and no more are good numbers to shoot for, rod and mains. Our oil system is weak compared to most engines and really wont tolerate loose clearances. Also make sure your springs will work with your cam, is it billet or cast? The stock driveshaft and original u-joints will take a ridiculous amount of abuse, from what I have seen the only one to fail had the original u-joints replaced.

 

[Nick Micale]

............... Just make sure your friend keeps the bearing clearances tight so that this does not turn into a low oil pressure thread, .001 to .002 and no more are good numbers to shoot for, rod and mains. Our oil system is weak compared to most engines and really wont tolerate loose clearances. .........

I agree with most of your comments, but your statement about oil pressure scares the hell out of me?

We have done hundred of turbo Buick V-6 performance engine builds, and our minimum on rods and mains is .002", and .025" is not uncommon.

The oil system is NOT "weak" if it is set up properly. Oil pressure is important, but oil flow is just as important.

It all starts with the timing cover/oil pump being prepared, modified and assembled properly, and when this is done it can and will be ample to support 1000 HP, even in a stock block which we have done.

In my personal turbo cars which have had thousands of runs over the years, never has a rod or main bearing been trashed by lack of oil, killed a few pistons, valves and timing chains, but oil pressure has never been an issue.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

Thanks for the information!

I will be upgrading differential if it isn't already. This motor only had 1200 miles on it and the tolerances were put in to place per Dave Husek's specs. My timing cover is from Earl so I told Doug to leave it alone and just tear down the motor and look for any carnage due to fogging the motor with coolant. We looked at one of the main bearings and it looked perfect so I don't expect to find any problems but I did have a leak at the back of the motor so I figured tear it down and make sure I didn't hurt it. Install new rear main seal and check block plugs etc. So far everything looked good to him from just a quick look.

My cam is a Billet piece and they certainly don't give those away so that's one reason I wanted to keep it even if there's a few ponies to be had with a different one since I changed heads.

Doug likes spring pressure that's why he mentioned a solid roller. The last motor he built for me has a solid roller but I spin that motor 7200 rpm. I told him 5500 to 5700rpm is where I would turn this one. He seemed a little surprised by that? I don't have enough knowledge yet to have a real intelligent conversation with him about the ins and outs of these motors so we're just taking it one step at a time. Doug's real easy to talk to about motors etc. To him it's physics, tolerances and above all common sense.

He's been doing a lot of high HP blown stuff lately so I'm in good hands when it comes to setting up the valve train and making things live together on a boosted application. I do believe I'm his first TB customer so he's pretty excited to get one down the road.

As far as the fueling goes I will need to address that formally. My pump is 10 years old if in fact it's the same pump they put in the car back then? I've been told that Red's pumps are the best. It kept up with the old motor and the 42.5's at 24 psi with a TA60. I taped a fuel pressure gauge to the windshield. I never had a chance to do much goofing around with the stroker before I lifted the head. According to the PL and the WB I was covered at 18/19 psi. I'll have to see what Red's got out there these days for fuel pumps.

 

[Pronto]

Personally I don't want to worry about fuel delivery. I went Racetronix double pumper and AN 8 feed/6 return.

 

[20psiofevil]

I do not understand what you have posted, but his TA heads have been worked, and the TA numbers you posted are for out-of-the box heads and they are way low?

Yeah, I was comparing stock to stock from what I copied and pasted from ta website. Also saw fully worked they can flow up to 300cfm which is pretty damn good. I wish my platform had aftermarket heads, just not a big following like the buick I guess.

 

[johnplogii]

That is a lot of cam for your goals. I definitely wouldn't go bigger, and you sure don't need solid lifters.