Question for OBD II experts

[BuickMike]

I'm wondering if all OBD II systems manage an engine in a fairly similar manor. For example, is there a huge difference in the way a Ford OBD II PCM interprets data vs. a GM PCM?

Here's why I'm asking...

Several months ago I bought a Welsh Technologies Propane injection kit for my '99 Regal GS and it didn't do squat. It was supposed to increase fuel economy, but it didn't. After working with the owner of the company to ensure the system was operating correctly, I emailed asking about his return policy and never heard back. I have the Consumer Protection Agency after him now, but that's a different story.

Before I bought the kit, i told him that if this one works out I would want another one for my '00 F150. He told me that the PCM in '97 and up Fords does not compensate for the LPG and therefore there is no result. So now I'm thinking that maybe all OBD II vehicles will not work.

Before you all go off stating that this kit does not work period, there are a couple of people on this board who use the Welsh kit along with plenty of other testimonials I've seen who swear by it.

BTW, all of their cars are pre '96 from what I've seen.

 

[Scott Atk]

Good Info Mike. Keep us posted, I was planning on buying a Welsh kit myself. I think I'll wait to hear how you come out.

 

[BuickMike]

Since he's disappeared off the face of the planet and so far I'm stuck with this thing, I'm half tempted to install it on the GN and see how it effects economy.

BTW, Klrv6 has his kit on a '93 Sentra and an older Suburban. He seems to be really happy with it. All I know is it didn't do a damn thing for my '99 Regal.

 

[TurboJim]

I dont know how fords program is written, but I do know their ecm's. Fords data stream is bi directional in that you can selct what PIDs to view and the fewer you viw, he faster the refresh is, so I know the ECM is spitting out packets differently. As for not being able to run LPG, I think it depends on the ECM as many ford cars/trucks are CNG capable, depending on the ECM/vin. Maybe your truck wasnt available with a CNG option so the place cant flash it to work.

Why not ask this question on a Ferd HP site, where they know how the program is written/processed.. Maybe write Eric Marshall or Bruce Plecan as maybe he's hacked a Ford ECM apart?

 

[BuickMike]

This kit does not convert the car to LPG, it injects propane into the intake manifold as a supplimental fuel. There is supposedly no ECM modification needed.

I'm just curious about how similar all OBD II systems are. If Ford and GN OBD II systems are similar enough to react to injected LPG in a similar manner, then I'm going to assume that this kit won't work on any OBD II based vehicle.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by BuickMike
This kit does not convert the car to LPG, it injects propane into the intake manifold as a supplimental fuel. There is supposedly no ECM modification needed.

I'm just curious about how similar all OBD II systems are. If Ford and GN OBD II systems are similar enough to react to injected LPG in a similar manner, then I'm going to assume that this kit won't work on any OBD II based vehicle.

I understand, but the Ferd ECM's are somewhat aware in flex fuel vehicles and adjust parameter for the different fuel, thats all I meant

 

[klrv6]

Where did he go?

I have had zero problems with John at Welsh. One of the Welsh kits is on a 99 Suburban 350/4l60e with the Welsh propane tank. Sorry if you're having problems.

I'll let you know how it does on a Ford, my brother can run his probe upwards of 700 miles in one weekend, that should be a pretty good test. His 04 Expy would more than likely croak on the side of the road if it were to ingest propane. How long did you run it on the GS? What was the propane to miles driven? My Sentra feels like I'm running with two cylinders when the propane runs out The Suburban does automatically adjust for the air/fuel mix as the proppane is added. I will soon be upgrading my Welsh units to the newest model that John said will supply more propane to the engine I'll get some autotap numbers of a/f and load graphs once the upgrade is complete. Sorry my Sentra is too stupid to spit out the data I need, but she still hits 50MPG!

 

[BuickMike]

klrv6,

I ran the Welsh kit on my GS for about 2 months and 3000 miles. I first connected the kit up to the vacuum block just after the TB. I ran it like this for about 5 tanks of gas with no results. I was using a 5 gal BBQ tank and it lasted about 800 miles. According to John, this was normal consumption since his 2.75 gal fuel cell would last 400 - 450 miles on a passenger car. Per his suggestion, I moved the lpg output to the MAP port since it is after the supercharger. This made the car sluggish and even gave it a stumble at idle. I used more propane, but still got the same fuel economy.

At this point I made many attempts to contact John via email and voicemail (he never answers the phone) and did not hear back. In fact, I spoke with him several times on the phone asking about how the unit would work on my car and got his assurance that there would be no problems. After I tried calling for support he never called back. I emailed with no response. After 2 weeks I emailed him stating that I will need to contact the BBB if I did not hear back since it is unprofessional for a business to ignore a customer who has purchased a product and needs support. He emailed back the next day claimimg that he was in the process of moving his business and did not know I tried to make contact. He was also very defensive about the BBB comment. After trying every port available I emailed and called simply asking what to do now, and if I'm out of options what is his return policy.
I never heard back again. I submitted a claim with the BBB and they spent 2 months trying to get a hold of him with no response. I have now escalated the issue to the Consumer Protection agency which will probably go nowhere as well.

 

[BuickMike]

Sorry about the long rant, but poor business practices are one of my biggest pet peeves. I'm not saying in any way that the Welsh kit is a fraud, but it just does not seem to work at all on the L67 motor.

Hell, I'll sell this thing if anyone's interested.

 

[granatl]

About a year ago, I did some research into OBD-II since a group of us were going to do some work on an un-manned vehicle. My impression from what I read basically says that the "generic" data stream must comply to some standard, but otherwise car companies were free to develop the guts as they choose. The "special" data streams could also add anything else they found valuable; I can't remember the specific names for the different companies though.

 

[2QUIK6]

I don't quit understand how it could cut fuel economy if the ECM was not at least reflashed. Since its adding additional fuel (propane) to the intake charge, then fuel (gasoline) must be removed from the injectors. The ECM is going to command the injectors so stay open for x amount of time based on the MAF reading. Since additional fuel is added (propane) somehow the injector DC would have to be decreased...and thats where your fuel economy would increase.
Just an observation as I don't have any experience with the propane injection, but thats how alky injection works, same concept.

 

[klrv6]

That's what I was thinking.

From what I understand, the O2 sensor adjusts injectors based on a/f seen. I should have my new welsh unit installed within two weeks and will be able to provide data with the system on or off. The computer will also allow timing to advance further with propane under load conditions (engine takes more to detonate)but, don't plan on any MPG increase if running under boost/load.

 

[turbo2nr]

The OBD II will adjust up to 25%+/- fuel, using a WB O2 sensor as data. BUT, do they make adjustments at WOT? I THINK, they do not. Anyone?



Did you buy the propane kit to just save gas, or to run higher boost with pump gas? Are you able to scan your car using an actron super scanner, or better? Can you read your knock? Can you run more boost without knock, or can you run full boost with 87octane fuel without knock?

 

[BuickMike]

I bought the kit for fuel economy only. I probably got into it only 3 or 4 times while I had the system running because I was trying to see if I would get results. I don't have any scanner for my '99.

Maybe I'll connect it up to the GN one day and scan it to see what happens.

 

[BuickMike]

Update

After the BBB failing to contact John Welsh I had to escalate the case to the Consumer Protection Agency.

Six weeks later I was in contact with a representative from the agency. He had a real hard time tracking John Welsh down because he has no real business address listed anywhere. He also stated that John was difficult to deal with and maintained that I had installed the unit improperly. This enrages me because before I asked to return the product I collaberated with John a couple times to make sure that the unit was injecting propane properly.

John refused to agree to a refund and stated that I can contact him to replace the product for another one. At this point all I can do is try to get a written statement from Buick and the EPA stating that the product will not work on my particular vehicle. The CPA just doesn't have the resources to do anything else for me. So, it looks like I'm out $275.

I just want to warn you folks who are thinking about his kit. It has worked well on others' vehicles, but someone with such poor business practices should not stay in business.