Questions for roller installation- please help.

[Amelio]

OK I am assembling the engine and I am currently checking the preload on the rollers, from what I have read I want between .30 and .40 clearence. My Wire feeler gauge only goes to .35 and I also have some mechanics wire at
.41 .32 and .25 Here is the situtaion on the odd bank every lifter measured more than the .41 wire I have.....and good guess tells me it is probably close to .48 but definitely no more than that. On the even bank it is just the opposite everything is right around the .25-.32 piece of wire I have.

Here are my questions:

1. Has anyone else seen a spread like this from one bank to the other or just from one lifter to another?

2. Given the clerances above what are the running issues going to be....noisey valave train or will I have power issues.

I know the best scenario is to get a set of roller rockers and adjust each one right.....beleive me thats is what I wanted to do but money did not permit so I have to run the stockers.

All opinions and answers welcome.

Thank you!

 

[Rodney87GN]

I'm not quite sure how you are checking for preload....the "clearance" you are referring to is the amount the internal plunger in the lifter is being moved in. Sounds like you're checking for clearance between the valve stem and rocker tip (correct me if i'm wrong), like on a solid lifter motor.

The best and easiest way is to use a pushrod length checker like the one Full Throttle sells. With the lifter you are checking on the base circle of the cam, extend the checker just enough until you have zero lash (no up and down movement). Don't force the checker or you will start pushing in the plunger and you'll get a false measurement. Measure the length of the checker and then add .030" for your preload and thats it. Then tell your favorite vendor the size pushrods you need and they'll get them for you.:smile: It's probably a good idea to check the other lifters too.

Also if you are using brand new lifters I would soak them in some cleaner. Once clean soak them in motor oil for a few hours, then go ahead and do your pushrod length checks.

 

[A2000RICH]

I'm not quite sure how you are checking for preload....the "clearance" you are referring to is the amount the internal plunger in the lifter is being moved in. Sounds like you're checking for clearance between the valve stem and rocker tip (correct me if i'm wrong), like on a solid lifter motor.

The best and easiest way is to use a pushrod length checker like the one Full Throttle sells. With the lifter you are checking on the base circle of the cam, extend the checker just enough until you have zero lash (no up and down movement). Don't force the checker or you will start pushing in the plunger and you'll get a false measurement. Measure the length of the checker and then add .030" for your preload and thats it. Then tell your favorite vendor the size pushrods you need and they'll get them for you.:smile: It's probably a good idea to check the other lifters too.

Also if you are using brand new lifters I would soak them in some cleaner. Once clean soak them in motor oil for a few hours, then go ahead and do your pushrod length checks.

i think i know what he is doing-------i do it also-------use a piece of wire as a go/no-go gauge by placing it between the wire clip and the plunger of the lifter as it is sitting on the base circle of the cam-------it works well and is actually easy to do-------as for his question i have seen quite a bit of variance in L/R side machining of these blocks------they were done in a time when production tolerances were not quite up to what can be achieved today and also at a time when i don't believe the workers cared enough to do it even if they could---------as for the lifter preload--------i have read lots of comments on this subject and it seems that the range of .025 to .040 is what most folks seem to think is correct-------that said it would appear that there should be no real problem with what you have now--------personally i select pushrods to acheive closer uniformity than what you have-------some choose to use adjustable pushrods but i personally don't like them--------by the way--------i measured a brand new long block a while back (not a goodwrench engine but a brand new 1987 production line pull) just to see what GM set the preload to--------it varied from a low of 60 to a high of 90 on the same engine--------sort of surprised me not only from a variation standpoint but the total amount of preload------i have built dozens of these engines in the last 15 years and I used to assume that the "correct" spec was the often quoted 25-40 and i still do it but i really wonder where that number really came from--------one word of note------some lifters do not have the same range of motion as others--------total travel of a GN OEM lifter is .190"--------i have measured some aftermarket lifters that are as little as .110 and most seem to be in the .120 to .130 range..................RC

 

[turbofabricator]

i think i know what he is doing-------i do it also-------use a piece of wire as a go/no-go gauge by placing it between the wire clip and the plunger of the lifter as it is sitting on the base circle of the cam-------it works well and is actually easy to do-------as for his question i have seen quite a bit of variance in L/R side machining of these blocks------they were done in a time when production tolerances were not quite up to what can be achieved today and also at a time when i don't believe the workers cared enough to do it even if they could---------as for the lifter preload--------i have read lots of comments on this subject and it seems that the range of .025 to .040 is what most folks seem to think is correct-------that said it would appear that there should be no real problem with what you have now--------personally i select pushrods to acheive closer uniformity than what you have-------some choose to use adjustable pushrods but i personally don't like them--------by the way--------i measured a brand new long block a while back (not a goodwrench engine but a brand new 1987 production line pull) just to see what GM set the preload to--------it varied from a low of 60 to a high of 90 on the same engine--------sort of surprised me not only from a variation standpoint but the total amount of preload------i have built dozens of these engines in the last 15 years and I used to assume that the "correct" spec was the often quoted 25-40 and i still do it but i really wonder where that number really came from--------one word of note------some lifters do not have the same range of motion as others--------total travel of a GN OEM lifter is .190"--------i have measured some aftermarket lifters that are as little as .110 and most seem to be in the .120 to .130 range..................RC

I have installed .032" washers under the rocker shafts on a COMPLETELY stock T-Type and picked up 40 horsepower (verified at the track) and the engine ran quieter, too. (that was the initial complant from the car owner.) So, I agree with Rich, in that the lifter pre-load is WAY off on a factory stock engine. I think that alot of people are leaving alot of power on the table with incorrect lifter preload.
I also use a wire feeler gauge to verify lifter preload when not using adjustable valvetrain. Adjustable pushrods work great, but are a PAIN to set-up, especially in the car with an intake on. It is almost faster to remove the intake when adjusting the pushrods. The adjusting nuts and adjusters seem too small to even work, but they do fine. I've never had a problem with them, and have been using them on numerous Buicks for 18+ years. They are a viable option, especially when you factor in the cost of roller rockers. $125 vs. $600. (rockers, pushrods, and valve covers) The $125 spent on adjustable push rods might just be the cheapest 30-100 hp. you have ever spent.
I lost 100 hp on my car 18+ years ago, due to excessive pre-load. I went from 112 mph to 103mph over the winter. I found a flat cam with 5 flat lobes. I replaced the cam, and STILL ran 103 mph. It took some investigating, but finally figured out I had .150" of lifter preload. I never checked it back then....I just figured it was "good". I was still learning the Buick V6 back then. I was use to running mechanical valetrain and had never had to think about lifter pre-load. I ended up just using Chevy lifters, because they are identical to a Buick lifter, except they have a .100" deeper push rod cup. It was a Saturday, and I couldn't get adjustable push rods for a few days, and my wife drove the car as a daily driver. The Chevy lifters worked perfectly. I was back to 112mph. Lesson learned. The $35 I paid for the Chevy lifters gave me 100 hp. Best money I have ever spent.

Let me clarify why I needed the valvetrain adjustment. I was running ported heads and had gone form stock head gaskets to steel shim gaskets over the winter. (I use to change head gaskets, back then, like most people change oil ) The reduction of gasket thickness pushed my already too much pre-load, to WAY too much preload. I never thought to check the preload. The car ran a best of 11.70 @112mph on stock turbo, Lucas 30 lb. injectors, KB 9006P2 chip, stock intercooler, small Crane cam, 8" DOT M&H tires, 3600 NL Art carr converter (LOVED that converter) and a set of AFR ported heads/intake. I'm surprised it didn't melt the engine with no fuel. I use to mix 1 tall can of 104 octane booster into 5 gal. C-16 to keep the engine alive. AWWWwwww the good old days!:biggrin: I felt like a martyr back then.

 

[Amelio]

Thanks!

Thanks for the comments guys!

As afr as how I measured I did use a wire and checked between the lifter plunger and retainer. I have built a few of these engines but this was the firest roller setup and the first time I had measures preload

I got the engine in the car last Wednesday and fired it up on Thursday, I was suprised to hear very little valvetrain noise. I was expecting a little more lifter nise from other posts I have read but it is pretty quite, it does sound like a sewing machine though....lol

It seems to run pretty good but now I am fighting with some tunning issues, the car has a bad hesitaion any time you hit the throttle....and it builds boost very slowly. I hoipe to have some time today to look into this stuff and it is minor but the important thing is it is running and nice and quite!:biggrin:

Thanks again!