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Rebuttal to TTa Values

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tracy

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2003
Messages
386
A while back I posted a thread on TTA values. The concensus was that in the eyes of most of us these are currently undervalued cars and not well known to many others.

Here is some good news. I talked with the owner of a classic car dealer who I have known for a while. Typically he is able to sell a car for more money than a private seller. How much depends on the vehicle, but on average maybe 2-3k more. Why this is possible, I cannot explain and frankly he has a hard time explaining it.

Anyway, I talked to him about TTA's and his response was very positive. He knows of these cars and their historical significance and was optomistic about their values. He said he has sold one in the last couple years and got 20k for it. Sounded like a nice clean car, he believed mileage was in the 30k range.


His advice was for owners of these cars was not to sell them and to maintain their originality and condition as much as possible while still enjoying them. I asked him about the "buyers market" some mentioned in my post, his response was this. "Sellers and stated book values dictate prices, not buyers and if the interested parties don't want to pay than it is foolish to sell. We looked at high retail on a clean TTA and it was slightly over 21K and showed an average appreciation of 3% annualy. His question to me was why would anyone sell this car for significantly less?

So there you have it from a credible source. I think what we take from this is that as owners, we are shooting ourselves in the foot by not putting more of a value on these cars. Talking/complaining about dissapointing values only drives the prices down in his opinion and keeps the cars in obscurity. If you must sell your TTA, set your price based on what the car is and it's stated value and it's value to you. The more people that do this the more standard the practice becomes. Why sell a clean TTA that books out for over 20k for 12-14k?
 
Some people need to sell their car for financial reasons or they have their eye on another car and need to sell their TTA before they buy another, probably a dozen reasons why they take less. Not everybody can sit on a car until they get their price like your friend.
I will be selling my TType soon but I'm not selling now while the market is flooded with them and while not many people will want to buy a car they can't drive for a couple of months until spring, I'm in a position where I can wait till Summer when the market will be better.
 
Originally posted by CHARGED
Some people need to sell their car for financial reasons or they have their eye on another car and need to sell their TTA before they buy another, probably a dozen reasons why they take less. Not everybody can sit on a car until they get their price like your friend.
I will be selling my TType soon but I'm not selling now while the market is flooded with them and while not many people will want to buy a car they can't drive for a couple of months until spring, I'm in a position where I can wait till Summer when the market will be better.

Exactly my point. Desperate sellers are to an extent driving prices. Better to hold out like you are saying.
 
After watching the Barret-Jackson auction this wekend, I'm encouraged a bit about the future value of the GN's and TTA's.

I remember a day when you could buy those Hemi cars for a song. Now look. Those owners who were patient, or, smart enough to buy and hold the right RARE Hemi's are smiling pretty large now. I noted also the rarity of some of the higher priced original and restored cars.

Like I said in your original post, now is the time to buy, not sell.

Pristine TTA's (GN's included) are very rare and very fast....Nothing to compare rarity and performance since the peak years of the muscle cars until a couple Corvettes and SVT vehicles and the super Cobras came out lately. The rarity of our cars will eventually pay off. I don't think we'll be in the same boat as the Hudson cars: Great vehicles, but, no "following" and few buyers.

Its not the time to sell :)
 
I have been into these cars since 1989 and finally picked up my first one 3 years ago (4K miles Festival Car) and my second one 3 weeks ago (4K mile Cloth/Hardtop).

The thing I have observed most is the turnover on the cars is incredible. Many, many cars are sold within a year of their puchase and its not just the high milage cars. This does not help car loyality. I understand people having financial rerasons, but it seems more than that. The other problem with these cars is even at 15 years their are quite a few of the 1555 cars still around. My guess is their are still about 1100-1200 of these cars and many of them have very, very low miles on them. Combine all of this, it creates more supply than demand. Thus prices will be down. :(

If you look at another Trans Am made it is the 73/74 SD455. They built about 1300 of these cars and today they are very sought after. These cars are like the TTA's in that they had a limited production, unique engine, very rich racing heritage and many were destroyed over the years. So after 30 years their are only about 300-400 left. These cars did not suffer the issue of many people storing the cars when they were new. So an ultra low milage SD455 T/A is under 25,000 mile not under 2,500 miles. People want these cars in a bad way and usually keep them for a long time.

I think we are at the bottom of values right now, and I do think if the economy stays on track, we should see an upside of the cars over the next 5 years.

It is a great time to buy, not to sell. :)

- Dave
 
>After watching the Barret-Jackson auction this wekend

Here's a point of info from some Vette sellers and magazines which I can relate to and agree with.

B-J (as it really should be called) is not indicative of the entire market. The complaint is that places like them are attractiing uneducated buyers and selling high while not bringing up the price of most cars (which may be bought by more educated buyers through non-hyped channels). Simply.....because the cars are not worth what BJ is selling them for. Plain and simple.

So a $100K sale at BJ isn't going to bring up the vast majority of cars $1

I call this the E-Bay, Monster Garage, American Chopper, American HotRod, name-your-car-channel phenomena..... people with money to waste see this stuff on tv and like kids with a new toy, gotta have it, want to get into it. They see these auctions on TV and jump right into the shark pool.

Do you know how many people now are buying custom choppers and pick them up wearing business suits, never to ride them, only to be able to show them off??
 
The "supply and demand" argument is something I do not but into.

If that were true, nobody would be able to sell a '69 Camaro.

I'll be selling my TTA (#109) 33K in the next year. I will be asking 18k-19k and taking nothing less and if it sits and does not sell it will not break my heart. If other owners want to give their cars away that's their decision.
 
Originally posted by tracy
The "supply and demand" argument is something I do not but into.

If that were true, nobody would be able to sell a '69 Camaro.

I'll be selling my TTA (#109) 33K in the next year. I will be asking 18k-19k and taking nothing less and if it sits and does not sell it will not break my heart. If other owners want to give their cars away that's their decision.

I bought my TTA with 1100 miles for $20k 2 years ago. Prices have not improved. I can find no less than 50 TTAs today that have less miles than yours and that the owners would be ecstatic to receive anything close to $19k. If you seriously want to sell your car anytime in the next 10-20 years there is no doubt you will have to lower your price. I understand your post but until you have the other 1554 owners in sync with your plans you will be a TTA owner a lot longer than you think. I am not trying to insult you here but do some serious searching all over the internet, you will see that everyone who has a TTA for sale has a better deal than what you are proposing.
 
I provided my input the last time this came up and I feel the need to chime in here again. I have a GN with 13K miles in EXCELLENT condition. According to your friend, the dealer, he can get $2-$3K more than the car is worth which means he can get me $19-$21K range? Can I have his #? I will offer him 50% of any money he makes me over $18K. If he can make such good money on them why aren't you having him sell it for you????????

"Sellers and stated book values dictate prices, not buyers and if the interested parties don't want to pay than it is foolish to sell. We looked at high retail on a clean TTA and it was slightly over 21K and showed an average appreciation of 3% annualy. His question to me was why would anyone sell this car for significantly less?"

Sellers don't state SQUAT except for an asking price. If I ask $40K for my GN does that mean it is suddenly worth $40K just cuz I am asking it? NADA.com says my car is worth $20,950. I can tell you right now if someone offers me $20,950 for my car, as much as I love it, IT'S SOLD!!!!!!! I will take that money and go buy another one with less miles and still put some money in my pocket. If someone isn't out there to buy these cars you can't sell it, PERIOD! Asking price is jus that, ASKING. Let me know when you list your car for $19K so I can follow it for the next 4-5 years years until it sells.

By the way, you consider your friend a reliable source. I consider the MARKET a much more relaible source. People ask $15K for TTA's with 33K miles and end up selling it 2 years later for $12-$13K. Once again, it is all about who is willing to spend the money.

I would also like your opinion on the value of a Hard Top TTA in relation to a regular TTA. NADA.com doesn't differentiate between the 2. Are you saying they are all worth the same amount? NADA.com also doesn't consider mileage in their figures. Does this mean a 100K mile TTA is worth the same as you $33K TTA? Or is your 33K mile TTA which you have put at top dollar based on the book value, is worth the same as 1987 GN's 2K mile TTA? If so, maybe he should go get 30K miles worth of enjoyment out of his car and then sell it for the same price he paid????????
 
Originally posted by 1987 GN
I bought my TTA with 1100 miles for $20k 2 years ago. Prices have not improved. I can find no less than 50 TTAs today that have less miles than yours and that the owners would be ecstatic to receive anything close to $19k. If you seriously want to sell your car anytime in the next 10-20 years there is no doubt you will have to lower your price. I understand your post but until you have the other 1554 owners in sync with your plans you will be a TTA owner a lot longer than you think. I am not trying to insult you here but do some serious searching all over the internet, you will see that everyone who has a TTA for sale has a better deal than what you are proposing.

I respectfully disagree and the fact that classic car dealers are getting these prices reaffirms my point.

I'm just trying to help you guys think a little, please don't be insulted by my suggestion that these cars may be more valuable than we believe the "market" reflects. There will be a day when these are highly coveted classics.

My other motive was to stimulate/educate potentail sellers to think twice before asking what the other guy is asking.
 
Originally posted by tracy
There will be a day when these are highly coveted classics.

A quote from the Lord of the Rings - Return of the King seems applicable here:
'There may come a day.........but it is not this day'

It is true that one day this may happen, but it is not certain. Also classic car dealers get more money too because they appeal to a lot of impulse buyers who want a car on the spot and do not want to waste their time shopping for 6 months or so. Not to mention they offer on site financing and a selection from many vehicles in one spot.
This is a good topic and I am not trying to insult you but I don't want you to set yourself up for a disappointment when you list your car for $6k too much and get zero interest in your TTA.
 
There are a bunch of people that make impulse buys for STATUS symbol items such as these. They always wanted one when they were kids and now they have lots of extra money so they go to someone like Dennis Kirban of Kirbanperformance.com and overpay for a car without even seeing it first in some cases. the EDUCATED buyer knows what the cars are worth and they are the ones that drive the realistic market values. I agree, these cars will be worth a lot of money in 20 more years. But you failed to answer some of my common sense questions in my previous post? If you can explain some of these things to me you may sway my opinion. Or, if you can explain why your friend, the dealer, who claims he can get you this price isn't selling the car for you?


I would also like your opinion on the value of a Hard Top TTA in relation to a regular TTA. NADA.com doesn't differentiate between the 2. Are you saying they are all worth the same amount? NADA.com also doesn't consider mileage in their figures. Does this mean a 100K mile TTA is worth the same as you $33K TTA? Or is your 33K mile TTA which you have put at top dollar based on the book value, is worth the same as 1987 GN's 2K mile TTA? If so, maybe he should go get 30K miles worth of enjoyment out of his car and then sell it for the same price he paid????????
 
FYI Tracy
I just bought a TTA in 9.5-10 condition with 22k mi less
then yours with about 3-4k in mods and all stock parts come with the car for $15.5K
and the other one I was looking at with 12k less then yours just sold for 15k and was in 9.5-10 condition.

Hope you like your TTA because you may have it awhile unless some sucker comes along or prices go back up to where they were 2 yrs ago. Just stating the obvious...
Hell I'm rooting for prices to go back up also now that I bought one:D
 
Originally posted by turboscott
I would also like your opinion on the value of a Hard Top TTA in relation to a regular TTA. NADA.com doesn't differentiate between the 2. Are you saying they are all worth the same amount?

I think the price of hardtop TTA's is or should be higher than t-top TTA's but the market for hardtop cars is limited, as there were only 39 built and most people looking for a TTA want t-tops. But for the buyer who knows these cars and wants a rare one, he will likely pay more(sometimes considerably more)for a hardtop than a t-top car in similar condition.

I can say from personal experience that within a few weeks of purchasing my cloth/hardtop I had recived and turned down several offers,both online and in person,for $3-5K more than I paid for the car.I still get the ocasional email or pm asking about my car,and if I am interested in selling.There is some interest,but it is limited.I suppose interest on the rare ones will grow if these cars become more well known.Time will tell.

Steve
 
I saw a TTA go on ebay for $25k last week with only 62 miles. Granted it was brand new condition with 62 miles, but that's the most I've seen one go for. I've seen one with 15 miles not fetch that much.
As a side note, I did see a '73 SD455 TA, the light blue with white stripe with 50+k miles, went up to $54k and didn't meet reserve!
 
Originally posted by tracy
The "supply and demand" argument is something I do not but into.

If that were true, nobody would be able to sell a '69 Camaro.

I'll be selling my TTA (#109) 33K in the next year. I will be asking 18k-19k and taking nothing less and if it sits and does not sell it will not break my heart. If other owners want to give their cars away that's their decision.

How can you ignore basic economics? Their may be a very large supply of 69 Camaro's compared to TTA, but I will tell you there're an even larger number of people (demand) out their who want one, so the prices are higher. This is what determines the value of anything.

So the value of the cars will go up by either reducing the supply. Which is happening, but at a very slow rate due to the high survival rate of these cars, or by increasing demand, which comes down to how many people want these cars.

I do not see either of these situations changing quickly any time soon.

So the best thing is to enjoy what you got and don't worry about it being a great investment.

Dave
 
Originally posted by davege

So the best thing is to enjoy what you got and don't worry about it being a great investment.

Dave

That is what I have decided to do, and I'm having a ball with the car. Get 'em out and drive 'em. Leave the car to your kids when your dead and let them worry about the value.:cool:
 
> How can you ignore basic economics?

You can't, but the real world is much more complicated than the Kensian view or however you want to approach it. It it were that simple we'd all be rich :-)

Collectibles don't always follow the basic economic laws. As an aside, why do you think tech stock prices rose so high a few years ago? Supply and demand..... nope.... actual valuation of the business... nope..... perception of worth.....yep.

A lot of valid points were raised, but they do not necessarily correlate together. You can't increase demand by price fixing; you may be able to artificially create demand in some cases, but not in this one. Collector auctions may drive prices in broad-base markets like Corvettes, but I still think this car will fall between the collector cracks......
 
A lot of valid points were raised, but they do not necessarily correlate together. You can't increase demand by price fixing; you may be able to artificially create demand in some cases, but not in this one. Collector auctions may drive prices in broad-base markets like Corvettes, but I still think this car will fall between the collector cracks...... [/B][/QUOTE]

I tend to agree with this statement. I do think these cars will eventually go up in value but I don't think they will ever be worth as much as a Grand National. I know how awesome these cars are (or at least my friend tells me they are, I've never driven one) but the majority of people don't know what the heck they are. The uneducated people think they are JUST 6's. You see some people call them a Turbo Charged GTA. And you see regular GTA's all over the place so these don't stand out. It is the same thing with the T-type's/Turbo T's. Some of them are in lower production than the GN's but because they look like a Regal they don't carry the value. They just don't stand out, unless you are at the track. :D :D
 
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